Rethinking Working Environments to Maximize Productivity and Well-being.

Kevin Hawkins at UXDX EMEA. Video: https://youtu.be/2z1CmV5RamA

Readable transcript: edited from the recording's captions for readability (fillers and false starts removed, punctuation and section headings added). Wording is the speaker's own. Timestamps are positions in the video. Names marked [?] could not be verified against the audio.

How are people working today?

[00:00:03] Kevin: All right, all right, all right, let's do a quick energy check. This is the last forum on this stage, so can I get a big round of woos from the crowd? OK, let's do another one: one, two, three, woo! Right, if you hear the woos, come join us. We're going to be talking about workplace productivity, making sure that you have the happiest environments, and about where you are not happy and why, so you can have great well-being. Then we'll have a big discussion on what's the best environment for you to be most productive, happy, and not leave.

[00:00:37] Let's start off with some context. How are people working today? Are you fully remote, are you hybrid, or are you all in person? Hybrid would be anything from one to four days in the office, all five days would be in person, and fully remote would be remote. If you haven't joined, scan the QR code to the left and you can join on AhaSlides. I'll give you another 45 seconds to vote.

[00:01:01] I'm seeing a lot of hybrid. A lot of companies have started making people come back into the office. My last company went from fully remote to four days remote to three days remote, and they said, "You guys should be lucky. We're still paying you the same salaries and you get to do whatever you want. You can be flexible and move to Guatemala for three months and come back. As long as you don't pay taxes there, you're fine." And some companies are doing, "Hey, fall back into the office. You have two months to relocate out of whatever beautiful place you were in," and now suddenly you're back in the office full time. People are leaving.

[00:01:33] I don't want to talk about this the entire time; we're going to share around the room. Quickly, with the group around you (you can pop the headphones off if you want), just talk: are you hybrid, are you remote, are you in person, and what do you like and dislike about it? This is going to be interactive, so feel free to just talk to the group of people right around you.

[00:02:07] Over here, you're all hybrid? Are you liking hybrid? OK. Do you like being hybrid, or was it better before? Do you get to choose the days you're in the office, or is it dictated by the company? OK.

Polls: productivity, alignment and connection

[00:02:49] Go ahead and pop your headphones back on; I'm going to do another quick poll. Pop your headphones back on so you can hear me nice and clearly. The next poll: if you're fully remote, how would you rate your productivity? For those of you who are fully remote, are you able to get the same amount of work done? Do you feel like your productivity is very high, it's OK, average, or do you believe it's below average or poor?

[00:03:24] OK, a lot of OKs, no poors. Good. We are self-reporting on our own productivity, so of course there is some bias: things are better, I want to be home. We usually see the same stats when you do the employee engagement survey, the employee NPS. People say, "I'm more productive at home," because you're trying to sway the company to give you full remote, or keep full remote, because you see some of your peer companies going backwards.

[00:03:50] All right, if you're fully remote, how would you rate your alignment? Do you feel like your team still works well together? Do you feel like your team works better together? Are you very aligned, are you OK, or is there some kind of loss, some miscommunication happening? OK, fully remote people, moving on to the next question. Last votes. More than half.

[00:04:18] Fully remote people, how would you rate your connection to your company? Do you feel very connected, so-so, or are you actively looking to leave because you don't have that bond, that same feeling, because maybe you don't know everyone and you haven't met people? If you're fully remote, how connected do you feel to staying at your employer?

[00:04:40] Can I get a show of hands for people in the room: how many people are fully remote? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. OK. How many people are hybrid? A lot of hybrid, majority hybrid. OK, so for the hybrid people, how would you rate your productivity?

[00:05:10] I feel like I really enjoy my office days, as long as the team aligns on having those office days be the team meetings, the team buildings, the offsites, the kickoffs, quarterly planning. I hate it when I'm in on my office day and I have eight hours of just phone calls or Zoom calls. You're like, "Why did I come all the way here?" OK, we still feel like we're very productive; we feel more productive hybrid, it seems. All right.

[00:05:36] Now let's vote on alignment. How aligned do you feel working hybrid? OK, a lot more "just OK." It seems like the second I say something, it skews the other direction. More than half. OK, last votes; I'm going to move on to the last one.

[00:06:04] For hybrid people, how would you rate your connection to your company? Sometimes you're there, sometimes you're not. How connected do you feel? I feel like on the days that I'm there, I'm seeing people, I'm making jokes. The water cooler metaphor: there's no water cooler, but you do get lunch sometimes, or we have inside jokes. It's better for onboarding especially. I usually come in whenever we have a new hire to the team or to the department, to meet people, especially in their early days.

[00:06:34] OK, people feel very connected, and then we have 8% actively looking. How many people are looking because of hybrid and they want to be fully remote? I'm not raising my hand... depends.

[00:06:51] All right, last section: in person. For people who are in the office all the time, how would you rate your productivity? Same three questions, and then we'll have a little conversation about it. I feel like something about going back to the office after COVID made it feel a lot like, "Oh, I was way more productive before," or "I was happier before," and happiness just feels more productive. So it's very polarizing: we have very high and we have poor.

[00:07:21] OK, second-to-last question. How would you rate your alignment if you're in person all the time? How aligned do you feel? Do you feel like you're making connected decisions? Is everyone on the same page? Very clear. And then the very last: how would you rate your connection to the company, people who are always there? I'm curious if it's less or more than the other two options. Very consistent votes.

[00:08:01] People online, give me a show of emojis, sad versus happy, for your connection. Lots of happies, a couple of sads. OK, there we go, a little more engagement. But mostly happy.

What's working for your team?

[00:08:22] Let's have a conversation. We have two mics in the room. Let's talk about what you really like about your team and what exactly is working. Whether you are remote or hybrid or in person, there are some things that really just make a better environment for productivity. Let's talk about those things. Maybe you can share something that works for you and it helps someone else. Maybe you can find something that really works that you haven't tried yet. Or maybe something you're trying that you really think should stop, and you can prevent someone else from making the same mistake.

[00:08:49] Feel free to form little groups with who's around you and have a quick conversation. I'll give you about five minutes to talk about something that you wish you could try differently, or that you haven't tried yet. And if anyone wants to share a story, just raise your hand.

[00:09:42] We have a story you want to share here? You went through a transition, so can you compare the differences?

[00:09:50] Audience: Can you hear me? Oh yeah, OK. I was previously in person, and then I worked remotely. I was even applying to jobs that did not say they were remote; I would just ask them once I got the interview and see what they said, because sometimes you just need to see what you're getting, and it opens up a lot of options. I really am more productive when I am remote versus when I'm in person, because I'm a talker, if you don't know, and there are so many people who want to stop and talk and ask you questions.

[00:10:19] When you are fully remote, you can block off notifications, no one can find you, and you can get into the deep work that you need. Whereas when I was in person, it was very hard; everybody figures out where you are and can talk to you at any moment. But I do often visit and have that in-person collaboration, because you miss all of the little sweet water cooler talk and learning all the gossip. And yes, there's a WhatsApp group, but it goes too fast for me, so I miss a lot. No one scrolls up.

[00:10:51] Kevin: Yeah. Another story?

[00:10:53] Audience: I was hybrid pre-COVID, before most people really were, so the transition to being fully remote maybe wasn't the same for me. I do miss my two days in the office, because my office is quite far now and I can't really go in. But I found that even when my company started to make an effort around connection for remote employees, and they really encouraged us, it still took me a while to find that motivation.

[00:11:22] Now I'm taking more active steps to connect, because my office is in Galway and I live in Dublin. Really trying to find that time and block out that time has started to make a big difference, because I think without it I do miss out.

[00:11:34] Kevin: You said your company is making an effort. What kind of effort? Is it digital efforts, or in person?

[00:11:41] Audience: There are digital efforts for us to do social things, which is nice. But I think the really important one is the management encouragement to take a long lunch on a Friday, find that other employee in Dublin and have lunch. That kind of stuff is really important: encouraging us to spend that time together. And sometimes there are initiatives to help me get down to Galway, like a budget to get down there, or to meet nearby.

[00:12:04] Kevin: OK, yes, because you're not really going to always do it outside of work hours, especially if you don't know them.

[00:12:12] Audience: Yes. So encouraging us during work hours to have a lunch or a coffee with someone has made a really big difference.

[00:12:17] Kevin: Certainly. I see some head nods over here. Are you all remote, hybrid?

[00:12:23] Audience: Personally I'm hybrid, so one day a week in the office, which suits me, because I accepted the job during COVID, and now that we're back in the office, it's an hour-long bus journey. So doing that once a week is OK for the minute. We have our team days, so everybody comes into the office, and I'm not sitting there like a loner. They make an effort: whether they bring in lunch or we go out for lunch. We do have evening socials, but that's family time. In the evening, sometimes you don't want to continue sitting around people who always talk about work. It's nice to maybe do stuff during the day, which I think is good to encourage as well.

[00:13:08] Kevin: Nice. I'm hearing a lot of: if you're going to do hybrid, if you're going to do remote, you need to make some investments so that people have dedicated time, sanctioned or allocated, and also maybe some help, like a budget for taking people out to lunch, and team building centered around these time slots. Any stories over here of what's working for you? Anyone want to share? Tell us if you're hybrid, in person or remote, and then what's working for your team.

[00:13:38] Audience: Hybrid. I think collaboration tools work really well, because even when we go into the office, a lot of our team is split across different locations. So using conference calls, FigJam, Confluence, that type of stuff. And then it is nice to have lunch when we do go into the office, even if only part of your team is there. It's still good to get a little bit of in-person time.

[00:14:03] Kevin: On the days you're in the office with the whole team, do you feel like you still have a lot of meetings that are virtual, for the people who are not there?

[00:14:09] Audience: Yes. When you said eight hours of meetings, that resonated with me a lot, because that happens a few days when I go in. But sometimes there are certain events that happen in our office and people fly in for them, and those days are amazing.

[00:14:21] Kevin: So localized events seem to be helpful. That way, at least the people who are coming in have their own designated bonding moment, even if people online don't want to come in that day or they're too far away.

[00:14:30] Audience: Yes, exactly.

Hybrid workshops, and meeting-free office days

[00:14:34] Kevin: Nice. Anything over here? Anything that's really working or really not working for your team?

[00:14:43] Audience: Hi there. We have on-site workshops, and the team can get together at those events, and that's awesome. But there's always someone who's slightly sick and has to stay at home, or needs to take care of a relative, or something else. So those formats that used to be strictly on-site are now also hybrid. We've had very good experience with providing extra webcams to give an extra look at the Post-it walls that we do in person. We need to embrace it now and provide for them as well, and we have great experience with making it a good experience for those at home too.

[00:15:35] Kevin: Do you feel like every single event now has to have some remote component, just in case someone is sick, or it doesn't make sense for them to come in? So everything now has some webcam or some digital experience attached to it?

[00:15:46] Audience: Almost, yes. I would say very few, like brainstorming sessions, can happen with just a set of three to five people in a room without any remote participation. But if you want to embrace the entire team, it has to be hybrid nowadays. That's my experience.

[00:16:04] Kevin: Do you like it personally? I feel like maybe this is a boost to the Miros and the FigJams. Do you now always digitize anything that you do offline, because you have people who are only remote or only online?

[00:16:16] Audience: Sometimes we go the easy route and just take a picture of the wall afterwards. But a lot is happening in Miro, et cetera.

[00:16:26] Kevin: OK, nice. There are some good stories going around. Let's see, one over here. Perfect.

[00:16:35] Audience: Hey, how's it going? Our good practice for the last couple of years was basically deciding on a day, Thursdays or Tuesdays, when the whole design team comes into the office, and basically that's it. We talk, we have regular conversations, and we don't worry about skipping meetings. We just go, "OK, I don't have time for this meeting. We're going to talk, have a regular conversation."

[00:17:04] Whoever's remote, and usually there's one or two people remote, we say to them, "OK, you guys don't need to worry about these conversations we have. We're not going to sit in the conference room and have all the conversations in the conference room. Of course we're going to be in the office, or outside in the coffee shop. So you guys stay at home, just chill out, don't worry about a thing."

[00:17:29] Now we've figured out that for most of the team, Thursdays or Tuesdays are religiously empty of meetings. Maybe they have a meeting at eight, so when we drive to the office, we have the meeting inside the car. Because we live in a small country, we can drive to our office, so they do their talks inside the car, and then it's just us. We split at 3:00 p.m. and go home, back to our families, and the day is done.

[00:17:58] Kevin: OK, so kind of the opposite model. The days that you're in person, you want them open and free.

[00:18:04] Audience: Yes, no meetings. I've always been saying: if it can be an email, just send us an email, send us a post, whatever. If it can't be done in person, why would it be done in Miro or in FigJam or whatever? Just talk it out, and then go back to your everyday, day-to-day work, Monday to Friday.

No meeting days, and what doesn't work

[00:18:26] Kevin: OK, nice. Another story over here.

[00:18:34] Audience: I really like that idea, because I was just reflecting on my time. I haven't been to a conference since pre-COVID, and my time here today, just floating about to different talks and chatting to the people beside you: I don't have to go to any meetings at work. It's amazing to have that break and that freedom. Maybe there's something in that. Maybe that's something to embrace once a month in your office: a no meeting day, where you can just do your own thing and there's no pressure from anyone.

[00:19:08] There's something very re-energizing about it. You can go and learn something new. I know companies do that kind of stuff, but there's always this pressure. There's always that important meeting that you have to go to, even one you didn't really want to go to, or that just popped up out of nowhere. If there was one day where nobody had to go to a meeting, that would be amazing, I think, for hybrid and in person.

[00:19:32] Kevin: Yes, I love this. Does anyone in the room have a no meeting day? A couple of people. Oh nice, lovely. I've only been at one company that ever did that, but I loved that day. Then they decided to break it up into three hours on one day and four hours on another day, and we were like, "No, we all want it back," and they ended up giving it back to us. So I really love that. Is there anything that your team is doing, or that you've heard of people doing, that does not work? Asking for a friend, or a story you've heard that's not you.

[00:20:05] Audience: I've been at companies with the no meeting day, and I don't know about you guys, but not everyone respects that rule. And then your wonderfully clear day suddenly... Especially as a researcher, I'm very bad at keeping that day free, because I'll be like, "Well, I'll just put the interviews on that day, because I'm free," and then you end up in meetings. I think maybe it's company culture, but it's also personal culture, actually keeping that day clear. Time management as a personal, individual skill.

[00:20:35] Kevin: Yes, it's hard. There's always something that appears out of nowhere, that you didn't even realize, and pops up on that no meeting Monday or Friday. I use a platform called Clockwise, which finds and blocks focus time for me. I feel like if it shows up as free, then people will consider it and treat it as free, but if it shows as busy, then it's busy. Even more so, busy could be something private or a personal matter. So if it just has focus time on it, or we have no meeting time blocked out by the entire team as a team calendar initiative, then you kind of enforce this culture. Does anyone have a day that they prefer for getting productive work done, like a Monday or Friday or a Tuesday? Anyone have a specific day they prefer?

[00:21:17] Audience: I wanted to relate to the previous question, which is basically what does not work, which I would say is more important. I've been working remotely for the past 15 years, and there wasn't a single deadline that I missed. And I have no idea why... I mean, I kind of have an idea why leadership or executives want you to be in the office. And you know that you're not going to get anything done in the office, because people are going to bother you. You're going to be in that meeting which is not on the calendar, you're going to be there and there, and you're not going to be doing anything.

[00:21:59] I figured out that whatever I wanted to do on the day that we come to the office never got done. For me personally, offices and work did not go well together. I'm going to say I'm an older guy with a family. I have two kids, and I've got to pick them up from kindergarten, so I don't have time to chill in the office until 5, 6, 7 p.m. and talk to everybody. I don't have the whole day. At home I can do everything, and whatever happens in the office is basically just talking to people, and that's it, because that works; that connects you to everybody. But if I want to do some serious work, the office has never been the answer. Never. OK, so maybe that's a bit weird.

[00:22:46] Kevin: No, everyone's different. We can pass the mic as well. I've been a leader at different companies, and one company was fully remote, and they essentially made a bunch of investments in people's personal home offices. Everyone has a different vibe when they are in work mode. For me, I always liked the office, mostly because of the station. Everything is organized. I'm OCD about everything being in a certain place: my wireless trackpad, because I don't use a mouse, and then I have everything, and I'm like, "I'm at work now."

[00:23:19] Until I built that at home, it never felt like I was at work. In the first couple of weeks of COVID, you're on a couch or at a dining room table, and you're like, "Oh, ergonomics do matter. This does not feel like work." It doesn't feel good for four, five, six, seven, eight hours. And you probably shouldn't work in your bedroom, for psychological purposes, because the mind shift of what a bed is for shouldn't be work and stress and your boss. 101. Another story?

[00:23:42] Audience: Just in terms of what doesn't work: for me personally, I'm hybrid, so it's meant to be three days a week in the office and two days a week from home. But actually I work four days a week in the office, because whenever I work from home, which I do on a Friday, I always just want to fall asleep. Maybe I've got too much of an association with bed; I'm in my sleepy place. So even though I'm in my home office, I just want to lie down on my sofa, eat some cheese and fall asleep. I try to do the remote thing, because I think for a lot of people it works and it's fantastic, but unfortunately it just makes me really, really sleepy.

[00:24:16] Kevin: Do you have flexibility in which day you work from home?

[00:24:20] Audience: Yes, we can choose. We try to do Thursdays as a design team generally, but because we've got several designers in Singapore, we're never all in the same place anyway, so everything has to be hybrid anyway. But in terms of physicality, we try to do it on the Thursday, and that kind of sticks. But then we slightly run out of hot desks; that's the other thing as well.

[00:24:42] Kevin: OK, so you feel like the company could be better organized around these days, so that you have enough seats?

[00:24:47] Audience: There are enough hot desks generally. It's just that people like the design hot desks, because I made some desks especially for design, and then we run out of those on Thursday. Everybody wants to sit in those; other non-designers always come and sit in them, because I made them all kind of cute-looking. I just made them too nice.

[00:25:00] Kevin: OK, you're just bribing everyone to come into the office. Nice. Cool, any other stories? There's a really good conversation happening over here. OK, perfect. You're first, and then you next.

Flexibility, naps and the four-day week

[00:25:16] Audience: I thought what that lady there was saying about feeling sleepy was really interesting. Working from home has given me an appreciation that if you feel sleepy, or if you feel like sitting on the couch, just do it, because I think in the long run it might actually make you more productive. There's nothing worse than sitting at a desk feeling completely unmotivated, fighting it and getting nothing done anyway. You end up doing nothing; you're just sitting at a desk feeling sleepy. So if you feel sleepy, go for a sleep.

[00:25:52] I've found a new appreciation, if I'm working from home, for sometimes just taking a large chunk of the middle of the day off and working a bit later, or starting work a bit earlier.

[00:26:03] Kevin: Like a power nap?

[00:26:05] Audience: Yes, or just go out and meet your friends during the day, or go for a walk, or go for a swim. Especially if it's a no meeting day, why do you have to work nine to five? You could work eight till twelve and then three till six, and get out and see the world, which you don't usually see during the day, when people are at a different pace of life. Or if you want to go for a sleep, just sleep.

[00:26:30] Kevin: Yes, I love the flexibility. We have another one over here, but in between I'll tell a quick story. Several governments in several countries have now been trialing the four-day work week, which means a reshuffling of the hours. You cancel a Friday or you cancel a Monday, and maybe you move six or seven of those hours across the week, maybe nine-hour days four days a week, and you lose a couple of hours. Or you have full flexibility, but just four days a week. I think a lot of people are really enjoying this. I think Japan saw a 40% increase in productivity.

[00:27:00] Germany is now trialing one where half of corporations in Germany can get it, because it impacts social security and some other government stuff. But I think flexible hours, not rigid days, is one model that works for some teams. If you have a team that's in multiple locations and multiple time zones, you need to have some overlap that you agree to. But if everyone seems to pick eight to twelve and three to six, then maybe you have a five-to-six meeting or a three-to-four meeting for everyone. Another story?

[00:27:29] Audience: I definitely agree with that flexibility to do something else during the day and organize your own schedule; it's such a big improvement since COVID. One more thing, maybe hugely personal, but highlighting the fact that everyone is so different. For me personally, I'm very productive if I don't have many meetings but I'm still in the office. In retrospect, I think it's because of that competitiveness: someone else is looking at my screen, and it puts me in a position where I like to show that I'm driving the thing. I think I excelled at pair programming, probably, but now I'm in more of a leadership position. At home, sometimes I spend too much time on this or on that, trying something, and being in the office pushes me more.

[00:28:26] Kevin: Do you think it's a rush to look busy? Or is it because you feel like people can see when you're not busy, so you stop dilly-dallying, or you explore faster?

[00:28:37] Audience: It's probably that bit of accountability, a social check: is this really the right thing that I'm doing? In retrospect, it goes back to when I was a kid at school. When I did homework at home, it was taking me ages, and when I had someone to compare with, I was the fastest in class. That was accompanying me into my workplace experience in some way. That's what I realized.

[00:29:08] Kevin: Yes, I think people have very different motivations for work. I think we have another story back there. I know some companies of course over-index on speed, and sometimes getting things done allows you to bring more things into the sprint. So maybe it's a personal goal to get to 20% time, or a project that they claim doesn't fit, and if you have time yourself, you can make it fit. So there are different motivations based on the team. Yes, you over there.

[00:29:38] Audience: I work hybrid, but I find personally, for the days in the office, there are two which are core days, when the shared team, the people I work with most closely, are in on the same day. But on that third day, you sit there in meetings you could be doing at home. So it does sometimes feel a little bit of a waste, taking the time to do that commute to effectively do the same thing in person.

[00:30:03] And definitely at home, because of the type of role that I have, where I'm the person people come to as a conduit to other teams, I feel that there's less noise sometimes, because they're not physically coming to find you, like you said. You can get into the rhythm a little bit more and get a block of time to work through something, in a way that I personally would find more difficult in the office.

[00:30:30] Kevin: OK, so two insights there. You like core days with the teams that you actually work with, and you feel like it's a waste when there's a day where you're in the office but it's full of meetings. And then there's a paired insight here. Let's say you have a free day. This could also become fluid time: maybe an engineer leaning over to a designer or a researcher, asking for help they wouldn't want to Slack about, or put in writing in an email, or make a Zoom call for.

[00:30:55] Also, maybe you have a bit of an office hours environment on this open day, if you're a team that is a service to other people, or maybe you're a leader and people want to just pop in with a quick question without scheduling a one-on-one, or without writing an email about a complaint they have. They just pop in. But if it's all going to be virtual meetings that you could do from home, then the value goes away.

Let the people who love culture lead it

[00:31:19] Kevin: OK, any other stories? Anything that you've not tried that you wish you had, that you've not heard yet?

[00:31:30] Audience: I've actually got something a little bit different. What I was going to say is: lean into the people who really love the culture things. Whether they want to plan a Halloween party or a Christmas party, and they come to you and say, "Hey, it would be great if we had a Christmas party," if they want to plan it, let them. You don't have to take that on, you don't have to have the managers do it. We have one of the people who works on my team, who's amazing: she's set up a yoga thing. It's 15 minutes, it's optional: "Do you want to join? It's here. You can turn off your camera, but you can still do yoga with us."

[00:32:05] You can still chat. We have Topic Tuesday, so it's like, "Here's an hour." Sometimes somebody will pop in, and then there'll be more, and other times nobody will. If you want to join, you join; if you don't, you don't. And if there are others there, you get to have that connection. So there are different ways, but it isn't mandatory. Not everybody has to come. But if they want to celebrate in their own way... At the research team, we'll do our own group costume for the Halloween party, and that's fun for us. We did it without telling all the others, and then each of the different teams had their own group; they were inspired.

[00:32:36] Even if it works for you and it doesn't work for somebody else, or vice versa, it's not mandatory. But if you want to join, or you want to set up something, if somebody's passionate about it, let them lean into it. Let them plan it. You don't have to say no because you don't have time for it. It's, "You can set that up? That's cool, do it."

[00:32:53] Kevin: Yes, I like empowering the team, especially if there is flexibility. Let's say there's a majority, but then there's maybe two or three people, or 20% of the people, who don't necessarily like the full commitment. You give them the option to have something that they control, that works for them, and then you don't lose them by being the 20% that you marginalize, or that your solution doesn't work for.

[00:33:09] The idea of remote yoga, I love this. I know some companies did in-person yoga before, so they made it remote. And I know there's a group at my last company that does a gym day for their team. Only the gym people go in person on that day, and it's a gym day, but it's worth them going because they're going for something they care about. Maybe it's a day that we don't make them go in, but they go in for that gym day, and it feels like the team gets together for a thing they care about. They feel closer together, and they don't complain about the commute, because they came because they wanted to. So flexibility seems to be the winning theme, because we are not one size fits all.

Mandates, well-being and staying

[00:33:46] Kevin: Now, there were a couple of mentions of well-being and maybe happiness. What are some of the things you're seeing right now where you think, "If this was done differently, I would be happier"? Not necessarily about the days you come in, but maybe the tools you're using, maybe the lack of flexibility, the enforcement. How many of you were asked about what you would like for remote, versus just being told, "These are the days, this is what's happening, we're switching, we're going into the office"? Many of you got an employee survey asking about remote work and how you would like to work with your team.

[00:34:24] For everyone else, I can say it was just mandated. We got an email one day, there was an all-hands, there was some company announcement: "Hey, you have two months to move," or "We are no longer going to be supporting laptops," or "You're suddenly going to be coming in Tuesdays and Thursdays." This rigidity feels like you don't have control of your own career. There's an aspect of the job that you said yes to. The manager is a big part of it, the working environment, the location you get to work from. If that is suddenly just taken away from you, you feel a little bit closer to being a number, and less like a member of the team.

[00:34:59] We have about three more minutes, so we can have another conversation. How many of you would stay at your company if they went fully remote? I love this: the majority of hands, I would say. Now, how many of you think your companies will ever go remote? Just for people online, there are no hands.

[00:35:25] There's a big reeling back of remote policies. I'm even seeing CEOs debating on LinkedIn. Some companies on LinkedIn can now state their remote policy on the very first page, so that people don't look at their jobs if they don't fit the policy. But there are a lot of people who would be remote. I don't think companies need to go fully remote to make people happy, for the well-being of each individual, and to keep the investment you're making staying at your company. Maybe you should figure out, team by team, some flexibility, some fluidity, and less one size fits all, fewer top-down mandates and announcements.

Ending on a happy story

[00:36:01] Kevin: OK, great. Does anybody have a happy story about how their team does remote that we can end on? Yes, you have a story?

[00:36:19] Audience: It's not about a team; it's more of an individual thing. But if it wasn't for remote working, I wouldn't be working, because I would have given up work, because I have kids. When you have kids, someone has to make the decision about going to work.

[00:36:32] Kevin: Yes, you have that decision.

[00:36:34] Audience: At the time, my husband owned his own business, so I would have had to give up my work. If it wasn't for remote and that flexibility, you guys wouldn't have me here today. Genuinely, for working parents it's a game changer, and it keeps women in the workforce and stops you losing good people. I think that should always be emphasized. You will get more people staying longer with you if you provide it, because we don't want to leave just because we have kids.

[00:37:02] Kevin: I see some hearts coming in for this one. This is actually a big deal. Everyone's allowed to speak in the forum. I think there was a big thing before COVID and then after, where maybe we stopped looking at the data, or we didn't ask before, when people were already doing hybrid. It's like, "Hey, I need to go home for an hour," or "I need to go home for a doctor's appointment at 3:00. I'll get back on at 4:00 and work till 6:00 to make up for that hour." That's hybrid, but it's fluid hybrid.

[00:37:29] My last company was super, super fluid, and every team was doing this, and it just worked so well. You would just say, "It's not logical for me to come in for half a day and go home for half a day." And tracking a system where I take 0.5 of a day off, or take four hours or three hours of paid time off, or an out day, or sick leave, doesn't make sense either. How about you just make the hours back up? Or how about you only need to make up the hours if you need to, and if you don't, then you just get them back? Because if I'm ahead of schedule, if the work is done, if I'm an over-performer, if the sprint's complete, then it's fine. So thank you for joining the forum, and thank you for your...