How Leaders can Empower their Teams

Golnaz Nozari, Joseph Meersman, Gianni Clifford, Ania Kaliska at UXDX EMEA. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwOmX9UZsiQ

Readable transcript: edited from the recording's captions for readability (fillers and false starts removed, punctuation and section headings added). Wording is the speaker's own. Timestamps are positions in the video. Names marked [?] could not be verified against the audio.

Introductions

[00:00:00] Gianni: My name is Gianni and I'm, of this group here, the person who traveled the least, but I was also the person who's here last, so make of that what you will. I'm a director of product design in Zendesk, and I've also been a past speaker here, but I'm delighted to introduce this panel. Over the last, between last week we had a call and earlier on, we've had some great conversations about diaper changing, children, paternity leave and some other interesting things that I won't repeat while on mic. So I'm going to pass it over to the panel to introduce themselves.

[00:00:31] Golnaz: Yeah, hi everyone, I'm Golnaz, I'm the tech lead at Candy Crush Saga. And believe me, that was my picture on the top left there, even though it doesn't look like me at all. Eight-year-old photo. Yeah, I'm happy to be here.

[00:00:47] Joe: Hi, my name is Joe Meersman. I'm a product design director at a legal and financial technology firm by the name of Intapp, and over the last 20 years of my career I've worked at IBM as well as, I'd say, shops that are about the size of two individuals and a dog. So I'm really happy to be here.

[00:01:11] Gianni: Great, thank you.

[00:01:13] Ania: Hi, my name is Ania Kaliska and I work at Allegro, the biggest European marketplace. I work as a research ops, so supporting the research team in my company.

Where's the line between managers and leaders?

[00:01:24] Gianni: Well, thanks very much, it's very good to see and be here. So I'm going to dig right in, and Golnaz, I'm actually going to start with you just because you're beside me. But as you all can see, we've got an interesting mix of people, some who are doing management and some people who don't have any direct reports. As someone who, am I correctly saying you don't have any direct reports at the moment, I'm interested to understand, since this talk is about how leaders empower teams, where do you see the line between someone who is a people manager and someone who's not a people manager when it comes to empowering teams?

[00:01:54] Golnaz: Good question, thank you. Yeah, I think the main difference is about, if you have some actual responsibility as a people manager, then you will have direct reports that you need to keep working with, keep an eye on their performance and all of this stuff, and do the official stuff. But as the lead you still are in charge of these kinds of things as well. You need to make sure to have a performing team, make sure that each individual is doing well, are happy with their work, the team is working well together. So I think empowerment should be done by both the people manager and the leader, and to be honest, in my opinion it is more of a job of a leader to empower people in the team than a manager that might not sit all the time with the team.

[00:02:52] Gianni: And Joe, you're the opposite side of the fence. How do you see, do you agree with it, do you not agree with it, the question being how to empower teams, and in terms of where you see the lines? For someone who does have direct reports, where do you see the line between senior people, leaders who don't have direct reports, and yourself who does, in terms of empowering the team that you work on?

[00:03:16] Joe: Sure. I think empowering teams happens at two different levels, the first of which is at the individual level, whereby as leaders we can empower individuals to have a distinct voice and to carry it across from design to product and to development in what I'll call a cohesive tone. And then of course there's the collective empowerment and enablement of design teams, which basically means that they have a strong leader to support them in terms of management and charting the path, as well as strong individual contributors to guide them in terms of craft. Ultimately it's about agency, providing agency and allowing the entire team to wrangle ambiguity.

[00:04:09] Gianni: Thanks. And Ania, I know we've kind of jumped straight in here. I know you've a deep and rich experience in managing teams in the past, and you work in an enablement role in a way. Where do you see that enablement, the empowerment of teams, how does that come together in your role?

[00:04:29] Ania: Well actually I agree with my previous speaker, because it's really important for the managers and leaders to be close to the team. And the empowerment for me and for my team, as I suppose, it comes from the trust and the communication. It's the fundamental piece, I think, because with good communication, trust, and generally giving people the ownership, I think that that's the main reason, the empowerment comes from that. So I would say that really leaders should be giving people the feeling of decisiveness, engage them, and maybe build the trust across the team and the company.

[00:05:16] Gianni: Well that's good. I have a question about trust later so let's not get too much into it now, otherwise you will be spoilers. But we're not getting too heavy in terms of being right after lunch with this sleepy audience. What does empowerment mean to you? How would you summarize that, what's between the lines, because people could perceive that term in different ways.

[00:05:35] Ania: Well generally, empowerment for me and for my team as I see it means our leaders give us opportunity to grow, to find self-improvement, grow within the given role, and we are really engaged in the product team, generally in the product process. So this one is like a feeling when you're just not making the job you just have to do, but you feel responsible for the product, you are engaged, you are with the team in the center of the process. So this is giving people the ownership, I would say. And I see it with my colleagues, that they need to feel that they are responsible for the product, and we really change lives of people by this product. So I think that this is the main reason. Of course also building the team, everything that's around this, relationships between the teams, it's also really, really important. But I would say that ownership, trust, collaboration, communication, that's it.

My team or the team?

[00:06:43] Gianni: Great, well thanks very much. Joe, you were talking there a second ago about that line between people who are people managers and them empowering the team, and people who aren't. Can you tell us a little bit about how you go about empowering leaders who don't have direct reports on your team to help empower the broader team?

[00:07:04] Joe: Absolutely. You had mentioned ownership and accountability, and for me they're a little different in terms of their nature. So for me as a leader of a design team, I'm really careful when I talk about the team, and what I avoid is using the term "my team", because that denotes a degree of ownership that I would have. It's the team, and as a member of the team I'm of the team. So my role as a leader is to make sure that everyone is accountable for delivering, because at the end of the day, as part of a larger team, team of teams, we're all beholden to the best possible experience that we can deliver.

[00:07:59] So I'd say the flip side to that is, high level individual contributors, y'all are gold, and I think some of you know it. When it comes to the individual contributor and how they lead a team, it's definitely by craft and precision of pixel, but it's also about mentoring junior members of the team. And 10 years ago we didn't have the choice to go leadership slash management or individual contributorship, so I kind of see that as a nice balanced equation.

[00:08:34] Gianni: And this vernacular switch between "my team" and "the team", is this something that you've developed over time in your career? Like when you're talking about the company that you work for, do you say "the company" versus "my company"?

[00:08:47] Joe: It is something I've kind of evolved over time. And for me I feel like there's a certain amount of healthy association I have with my work when it's not my team, when it's not my product, because at the end of the day I don't own any of this. And I think it drives a little bit more of that healthy divide between work and life a little bit, if it's a "the" instead of a "my".

[00:09:22] Gianni: I'll extend this question over to you to understand further. What do you think of this "my" and "the" split? Do you think that "the" kind of separates someone from the team, or do you understand where he's coming from?

[00:09:37] Golnaz: Yes and no. I politely disagree with you on that. I think when I talk about like, this is my team, first of all I should say that it's very important if we have built that level of trust and we know about each other in the team. If I'm new to a team maybe I should be more careful with the words that I'm using. But if they know that when I talk about my team it's about that I am part of this team as well, together with you, I don't see any problem with saying that this is my team, because I'm part of it. It's everyone else's team as well.

[00:10:20] Ania: Yeah, I would totally agree the same, because I also think that just being a part means I feel it the same way as my team, even if I'm a leader, I'm just in it the same way as they are. So yeah, it gives a sense of belonging.

Building trust

[00:10:42] Gianni: It's interesting, you mentioned trust, because that's where it's going to go next. And I'm interested, there's different nuances between inheriting a team, and whether that means that you're moving into a new area of the business or taking on a new team, or you're hiring the team, so essentially net new people. I'm interested in that initial trust and how you go about growing that and gaining that.

[00:11:06] Golnaz: Trust is mutual. So, as a leader I should work on gaining the trust from my team, at the same time I should see the outcome of their work to say that I can trust them. But in my position as a leader I see that I should first give them more autonomy, for example, give them more control over the things, be more hands off on the things as much as I can, and then the delivery answers to these expectations. And then, since I mentioned expectations, it's very important to have clear expectations on both sides, and that helps with building trust. I should be held accountable for what I promise to do in my expectations. When I promise something to do to my team, if I don't do that, that's the perfect way to destroy the trust.

[00:12:08] Gianni: I'll ask you the same question, just on trust. What's your opinion?

[00:12:13] Ania: Oh well, I think that for building, transparency is the biggest thing, because when the team knows exactly, and the decisions that's coming from the top, why this is this way or that way, this is really important. And the open communication also works here a lot, because I think that the feedback the employees give to the leader, or the other side, it's really, really important. So this openness for new things, new ideas, flexibility, it's generally the thing that really builds trust, and I see it on a daily basis in my work.

[00:12:58] Joe: I can take this as my opportunity to politely disagree. I think transparency is paramount, but, and we talked about this during our prep call last week, there are moments as leaders where we can't be as transparent as we would want to be. So in the name of transparency I think there are certain times to say, I understand your concern, I appreciate where you're coming from, I can't give you all the answers at this point in time. So in a way, just being honest and straight up about saying, I do have an answer, it's not fully formed yet. I think it's important, there's nothing more important than telling someone, can I get back to you on that.

[00:13:44] And I think as leaders, not feeling like we have to answer all the questions is really important, because I'd rather tell you I don't have an answer, I can get back to you, or, you know what, that's a really good question, can I take that offline? It's a dirty thing to say, but every once in a while it is advisable, it is better than just making up something on the spot. And I think we've all probably worked for weak leaders that feel like they need to answer something. As designers we have excellent radars, and the researchers in the room know that better than anybody else, we're finely tuned to it. So I think there are moments where we can communicate transparently, but there are other moments where it's probably best not to.

[00:14:33] Ania: Yes of course, I totally agree, because as a leader previously I know exactly that there are sometimes I cannot say some things. But I think that the most important thing here is that if you can't say anything, just don't say anything, and just don't give any signs of something going on. So that's the leader's job, and just not to make noise and panic attacks in the team.

[00:15:01] Gianni: So I think there's a statement that people might not be so in favor of, that a leader should be political. Do you think, can you elaborate a little bit more on that?

[00:15:11] Golnaz: Yeah, you need to know what to say, as they mentioned, when to stop sharing information, and you need to consider the sake of the business at the same time as the sake of the individuals.

[00:15:28] Gianni: There's always going to be things that any person within a business, or any person in essentially anything, can't say. But do you find it's okay to say, listen, I know a little bit more about that but I can't share it right now and I will share it as soon as I can, but just want to let you know there's something else there and I'll come back to you on that? Do you find that that's okay, or no?

[00:15:47] Golnaz: Yeah, I think that's absolutely okay.

[00:15:51] Gianni: Is that gamesmanship, is that playing politics?

[00:15:53] Golnaz: Yeah, it depends how you define politics. I think it's about communication. You need to have communication with people, build relationships, and know where to say what at which situation. But at the same time you need to be transparent, as Joseph said. If you are promising something that I'm going to get back to you, you should definitely get back to it.

[00:16:24] Gianni: Joe, was that my disagreement or was that their disagreement?

[00:16:29] Joe: I think we can disagree, or agree to disagree.

[00:16:31] Gianni: Okay. I alluded to the nuances of building trust with people that are net new to your company, or you inherit a new team. So there's a difference there between whether you're the new person or they're the new person. Do you find one is easier or more difficult than the other?

[00:16:47] Joe: You mean inheriting a team versus building?

[00:16:49] Gianni: No, like whether you're the new person, or the person you're trying to build trust with is the new person, whether that's on the team or whether that's in a full business.

[00:17:01] Joe: I mean, I think many of us in the room have lived the combinations and permutations you're talking about. Trust is earned, it's not freely given, and I think an element of trust other than transparency is how we deal with conflict. I can't remember where I saw it or heard it, but I do believe that conflict delayed is conflict compounded, and that there are moments where we just have to be very direct with one another. And I do think that that's an element of building trust. I think those of us that are in leadership positions today should have spent time sweating the pixel and getting things right throughout their careers, creating hundreds of pages of technical requirements back when we had to print those out. I think that's important because it shows that you've been there, you've done that, and you understand and embrace that. So I think a little bit of that is built over time.

Autonomy and empowerment

[00:18:04] Gianni: Okay, I'm going to just move us a little bit on and talk about autonomy. And Golnaz, I'll direct that to you to start. People tend to crave autonomy, but where do you see the line between autonomy and empowerment? Do you think they're mutually exclusive, do you think it's essential that someone has full autonomy? And how, as a tech lead, do you ensure the engineers that you work with have autonomy yet you're still able to stay close to their work and what they're doing?

[00:18:32] Golnaz: Well, I think talking about autonomy is not something that one size fits all. It's a matter of experience, seniority, variety of experience in the team. For example, if I have a heavy UI UX problem that I want to solve and I have a group of developers only, I can't just say, okay, I will give you full autonomy, go and build it.

[00:18:58] Gianni: Makes perfect sense. Designers love that.

[00:19:01] Golnaz: Yeah, you can't give people apples and ask for lemon juice. So you need to consider, as the lead you need to pinpoint what are the things that are lacking in the team, while giving enough autonomy to the individuals based on their seniority and their expertise. Just pinpoint what is lacking there and then provide them to the team.

[00:19:28] Gianni: And I'm going to extend this down to you on this empowerment with autonomy. What do you think?

[00:19:35] Ania: Yeah, well, I totally agree, because giving the autonomy is really important. And I would really say that giving the autonomy that is connected with the seniority level is really crucial here, because I see this in my team, that people generally tend to like to have the autonomy, this is necessary, and it's really connected with the seniority level. But there are some people that don't want to have this, because they don't feel like, I want to be decisive in this context. But the leader should generally see the opportunity and support this in companies and generally in teams.

[00:20:19] So yeah, I would say that in terms of my team, generally we work mostly autonomously. Many of us really like to do our stuff, we feel like a part of the product team, so we are really engaged in going deeper in the process, and leaders are supporting us as, you know, just watching if everything goes well, and if some conflicts or problems appear then they just kick in. And this is really great in terms of the communication also between the product designers, researchers, dev teams generally. So yeah, this builds a really, really great team, just empowerment.

[00:21:04] Gianni: Joe, your talk was on design critique, and as I was asking Golnaz there a second ago, giving the autonomy yet staying close to the work, is the design critique one of the fulcrums you use to pivot yourself in there and get close to designers on your team and their work? And are there other things like that that you use to stay close?

[00:21:28] Joe: For those that are design thinkers and workshoppers, I'm going to respond with a "yes, and" here. I think critique is a great tool for both high-level individual contributors and senior leadership to stay on top of the work and have that purview. So I think it's a great mechanism in order to enable us to be closer, as former practitioners in leadership roles, to the actual work of the work.

[00:22:02] What I'll say about autonomy is it's a little bit of a double-edged sword, in that I've seen it gone awry whereby if there isn't enough direction provided, it's easy to see people spin. I don't know how many of you in the room, and I'm not going to ask for a show of hands or anything, but have been left more or less autonomous and they run into kind of that equal force from development or product management that are also autonomous, and we kind of repel like magnets. And that's where too much autonomy can be an issue.

[00:22:39] What I'll say in kind of closing on the topic is, I couldn't agree with Golnaz more in that autonomy is not monolithic. Everyone in this room knows what the big bets for their organization are. As leaders we have to stay close to that, in case we're in a meeting or on a call and somebody calls out a really nuanced interaction or something that isn't quite right. And the last thing, as leaders we want to be in the position of saying, yeah, that's not quite right, let me get back to you on that, because that doesn't always work when you're talking to your boss's boss's boss.

[00:23:22] Gianni: And Golnaz, from your aspect, obviously from a different side, being on the dev side, what are the tools and ways that you empower them, you give them autonomy, the developers you work with, but what are the different ways that you also try and stay close to what they're doing while being kind of hands off?

[00:23:41] Golnaz: Yeah, well, as the tech lead I try not to be the one that makes the technical decisions all the time. So I would usually rather the devs get involved with things, work on problems, try to have their own discussions, come up with a proposal, and then I will review it and bring my two cents to it. But yeah, there might be times that I would need to jump in and take control over things. So it's mainly about keeping a balance there, to know how much of the work you can just leave to the developers and show that you trust them with what they are doing. And part of it, yeah, definitely, I'm there for a reason.

Underperformance and under-engagement

[00:24:31] Gianni: So yeah, well, we talked about trust and how it's built, and it was interesting, I think you said earlier on it's a two-way street. But how have you dealt with in the past one of the developers on your team, and I know you have management experience as well, so feel free to pick from any of your experience, but somebody who's either A, underperforming, or B, under-engaged? I'm also interested in the nuance and difference that you see between those two different things.

[00:24:58] Golnaz: Yeah, I would mainly talk about my previous experience because I don't have any direct reports at the moment. But it is mainly about, first you need to acknowledge the problem, and then try to pinpoint what are the grounds of this person underperforming or being under-engaged. For me it doesn't matter whether it's on their engagement or on their performance. And then trying to figure out what are their moving motivators, for example. There's an actual really good tool, I don't know if you have used it, to figure out people's moving motivators. It's very nice, I recommend that.

[00:25:37] And yeah, so look into that, try to talk to the individual, find what our option is. It's not always about trying to push the person to stay in the team and work on the things. Maybe they're not happy with the project they're working on, so you can try to find them another place in the organization, because at the end of the day it's better to keep the person inside the company than losing them for the whole. Yeah, did I answer your question?

[00:26:10] Gianni: Yeah, well, it's your answer, I can't grade it, and it's your perceptions from your experience. And I'm going to pass it on to you and just see what's your perspective on this.

[00:26:21] Ania: Yeah, well, I would agree that underperformance and generally under-engagement are connected, and it's normally, generally visible, when someone is under-engaged they are also probably underperforming. So as I see it, in my company we generally also go with the same direction. If somebody is doing something wrong it's probably not them, there's a whole other set of things that influence this. So probably maybe changing the team, changing the project, maybe some kind of other responsibilities, or something that would just make this person more motivated, is a great idea. And also generally, these times nowadays it's difficult to find a good match for people in the company, good talents, so it's probably better to move somebody inside the company than just let him go or her go.

[00:27:25] Gianni: Joe, do you agree with that statement, that underperformance and under-engagement always come hand in hand? If you notice, she's smiling.

[00:27:36] Joe: Listen, I understand that churn costs us all a lot of money in this climate, I'm not going to understate that. I don't mind admitting that I myself, years ago at an agency where we were doing primarily e-commerce, Hybris and Endeca deployments, I was over performing and I was completely unengaged. And I can tell you right now that, to me, whereas I understand that there's a connection, I feel like people that are unengaged can do so much more harm to an organization than an underperformer. And the reason why is that morale is something that's felt. And if you see someone really talented that's delivering who just doesn't care, it's really, really hard. You can feel it kind of weigh on a team, there's a surface tension that takes place. It's hard to describe, or maybe I'm just doing a poor job.

[00:28:39] But I think that in either case the way to manage it is pretty similar, in that you need, even if you're three levels above, pulling someone aside and taking a walk with them, getting out of the work environment, I think is really important. Or grabbing a coffee, beverage, whatever you want. I think it's beneficial. And also understanding that if you work in a large organization, it's okay that someone might not be on the right team or may not be the best fit for that problem to solve. If you're in a smaller organization, yes, churn hurts, but it's better that someone finds the right spot to be productive and grow their career. I kind of want all designers to be happy even if they're not with me. So it's okay to part ways, but doing so with clarity I think is important, because that's the best way to get the right person back on your team.

[00:29:39] Gianni: Do you think that, so you said there's a similar way to try and rectify the situation, but do you think when someone's under-engaged or doing what, you know, we hear quiet quitting a lot these days, I know it's an old term that's like come back like Terminator or something, but do you think there is a way back for people when they are under-engaged, no matter how they're performing?

[00:30:00] Joe: Absolutely. I think bringing it down to just having that human conversation and finding out what's going on with someone is a value. I've worked in many organizations that track people's time off. I have never tracked people's time off, because I have to trust them, they're adults. And even when there is a system I really don't bother tracking my own time off either. As long as people are able to get the job done and they're somewhat productive and happy with what they're doing, it makes all the difference in the world. So I think for me, just being less precious about giving people time, and time away from work, I think is important.

[00:30:45] Gianni: Well, I'm sure while you're over here in Dublin, at a time zone, your team is definitely working hard back in Austin.

Social connection and team spirit

[00:30:53] Gianni: I think it's a nice and unintentional pivot to another thing I have here. Golnaz, I'll start with you. Where do you see the role of social things in building trust and then building empowerment? So it's particularly coming out of the pandemic, when everything is remote and we're all so far away from each other. So whether they're social get-togethers or other social activities, I know literally getting together may not always be possible if people are in different regions, but how important do you see that to be in empowering your team?

[00:31:21] Golnaz: I think it's very important for building trust in the team and kind of feeling that we are part of the same team, building relationships between individuals. And yeah, with the pandemic hitting, it was not very easy. We were trying different ways of doing it, maybe having a Zoom meeting and playing something together with my team, to just try to feel like, yeah, we are doing some social activity together. So now that we are almost back to normal life, people kind of got used to staying at home in their PJs and working, and it's sometimes hard to convince them, oh, this is something good for you, come out of home once in a while.

[00:32:18] Gianni: I'll point it onto you. How important do you see that social aspect of empowering?

[00:32:24] Ania: I think it's very important, and generally not only about building the relationships between the team members, the social relationships, but also in terms of sharing knowledge. Maybe it's not always about just social gatherings, like we go for a beer or somewhere, but it's also about meetings when we just can exchange knowledge, ideas. And really, as a research ops now it's also my responsibility to track this time, find this time in the calendars of every 35 people in my bigger team, to make this happen, to just gather one time a week, make sure that we know what's up, what are we doing, when we can exchange everything. And this makes the team feel like a whole, like we know what's going on generally, even though each one of us works on different projects. So it makes you just build a team spirit.

[00:33:28] Gianni: It's nearly in a way more important to connect the people who aren't naturally connected by their work. You think that's fair to say?

[00:33:34] Ania: Yeah, could you please?

[00:33:37] Gianni: It's really more important to connect the people whose work isn't naturally connected. They're all possibly part of the bigger team, but their day-to-day project doesn't bring them together, it doesn't give them the opportunity to naturally just hang out, grab a coffee.

[00:33:47] Ania: Yes of course, yeah, totally.

[00:33:49] Gianni: Yeah. Joe, what do you reckon on the social side?

[00:33:55] Joe: I mean, it's similar to Golnaz, as well as probably most of us in the room, we tried everything.

[00:34:00] Gianni: What's everything?

[00:34:03] Joe: Oh, I mean, there was trivia. We tried happy hours, by the way not everyone drinks. We tried coffee and breakfast, not everyone drinks coffee. You know what actually ended up working was giving everyone the opportunity to almost give a 30-minute guest lecture on something they were passionate about. So it wasn't like, talk about your hobby, it was, talk about something that makes you excited or that you're a fan of. Someone gave a 30-minute lecture on the difference between Star Trek The Next Generation and all the other odd versions of it. I'm not picking on anyone here.

[00:34:50] Other people went to town on role-playing games, and it was great because if you get people to talk about what they love, their guard comes down. And when that happens we can find things that we have in common that we never would have known about otherwise. Not everyone's an extrovert, so giving the mic to each person and giving them a feel for when it was their turn was really important. The worst thing you can do is spring it on someone, like, hey, what's your favorite thing, what's your favorite flavor of ice cream, tell me more.

[00:35:20] Gianni: Yeah, that sort of stuff, it's forced fun. I know in my work we had something that we used to call the Friday drop-in, and it started in the pandemic as a way for us to come together. All of a sudden overnight we're all locked in our houses and looking at each other across the screen, and it started completely organically and really ad hocly, like, let's just talk about what we're doing for the weekend, let's just talk about the last book we read. And it's been running a couple of years, we actually retired it because we rolled it into something else just this week, and it was emotional, we were all emotional. It was like a flag to say, hey, we've come out of this pandemic, we're still here.

Audience question: can trust be the baseline?

[00:36:00] Gianni: We've got about 14 seconds left. I'm looking at Catherine to see if I still have time to ask the audience for a question. Please give me a thumbs up. Is that a thumbs up or a middle finger? One minute, one question. Does anyone want to throw their hand up for a question? No one on my team is allowed to ask anything. Yeah, there's a lady down there.

[00:36:25] Audience: Hi, thank you so much for this. You talked about trust and you talked about that we have to build trust. But how about creating a culture where you come in and you get trust? My question is kind of like, how can leaders empower that type of culture where you don't have to build trust, but you can break trust, but you come in and get trust just from being you and being hired and getting into that team? So my question is, what's your thoughts, and how can leaders empower that into the team?

[00:37:00] Gianni: Is that question directed at anyone particularly?

[00:37:08] Joe: I mean, I'd love to work in an environment where trust is the baseline, and I feel like when we're all onboarded at companies that's what we think, or that's what we hope for, but there's always a little bit of tribalism in the mix. I think the way to maintain it is to have clear goals, and that expectations are realistic, and that if you don't meet a goal, or if you don't absolutely hit the expectation out the park, that's okay. It's going to be all right, we can work on that together. It's probably more carrot than stick, which I feel like some of us may have experienced. I don't know if that was helpful.

[00:37:53] Gianni: Does anyone need to have anything to add?

[00:37:55] Ania: Yeah, well, actually I think that it's really important, and that was a good question, because I think that giving the new person in a team the feeling that it's really a warm welcome and it's not a coincidence that this one just joined the team, is really important. And yeah, actually I'm not sure how to do it, but I will definitely take a few minutes to rethink it in terms of onboarding new team members, because it's really, really cool.

[00:38:34] Golnaz: Yeah, I think I would talk about it from my own perspective as a leader. If as a leader I'm new to a team, my approach would be that I won't try to just get in and turn everything upside down. I need to gradually get integrated into the team. I should not even try to force myself into the team, oh, let's hang out, let's get to know each other. I should give the time to them to observe me in the team and build the trust that way.

[00:39:07] Gianni: Yeah, listen, or maybe you can just make it sound like National Geographic, you go in there, sniff each other out. All right, on that note, I'll say thank you very much to the guests here. They've all traveled a long way, unlike me, so give them a round of applause, they've been absolutely brilliant. Hold on. And if you see them walking around, grill them. If you see me walking around, don't, say hello. But if you see them walking around, grill them. Thanks very much everyone.