Building a Strong Design Community and Culture

So I'm going to sit down like I'm at my home, to have my water. Don't have my tea. I have to admit, this is the first time I've actually presented since the pandemic, but I'm really proud of myself, that I put on my hard pants and left my slippers at home.

The other thing I was going to say, you know, if you're okay with it, I would feel much more comfortable. If I could talk to you through this. You think I'm kidding? Not really. Okay. That was my one prop. Knew a little bit experiment. Anyway, great to see you all. All right. It's nothing like the rush of technology and what that may or may not bring, especially in a physical world. But I'm really excited to be here today. Because two years ago, I was with UXDX in Dublin. And today, I'm going to talk about a subject that I've been really, really passionate about for quite a long time. And that is Cultural Change. And so there was a panel before and unfortunately, I was so distracted by the tech, I didn't get to hear it. But I love that there's probably a possible tie in here.

But I've been at MasterCard for almost eight years now. And some people would say like, really, that seems like a long time. You know, in most people in today's world, especially now they'll jump to new roles after three to five years. That's just what people do. Right? So why did I stay? Well, not only do I really like MasterCard, as a company, what we're doing in the world, I'm really excited about the path we're on, I feel like I now have the advantage of an A level of understanding that I wouldn't have if I had jumped ship after five years. And all right, I love transformation. It's awesome. Most people would say you're a total glutton for punishment. But change is hard. And it takes time. And so now I feel like I have the benefit of hindsight, as well as a level of confidence and experience that will enable me to sort of help take this cultural change that's been happening, move the needle into the next phase. So first a little bit about MasterCard really quickly. Most people really don't know what we do.

So I'd like to start with just a bit of a brief introduction. So MasterCard is essentially a technology company in payments. So what we do is we connect consumers, merchants, banks, digital partnerships, governance, governments, and other organizations to enable electronic payments instead of cash. And what's really exciting is that we're also looking at new innovations and new areas and new customers that leverage our network into areas that extend beyond payments. For example, we're trying to figure out how to scale our network to solve for digital identity, a big problem. And we're also constantly looking for new business flywheels, that are coming out of emerging technologies such as quantum computing, and the metaverse that everyone keeps talking about.

But essentially, and this is important for what I'm going to talk about today, we are a b2b, b2c company. And what that means is we create technology and products for our customers that deliver value to their end customers. Consequently, it's on us to create things that our customers actually need. And that can help run their business. And with that, because we're a b2b, b2c company comes with a whole set of other challenges, like how can we ensure that our customers are also delivering an effective experience. So even though we're a b2b, b2c, we sometimes say we're, we really should behave like a b2c2b, and really designed for the end customer, even though their customers may be, you know, getting our API's and delivering on something. And so this is really important context.

So what do we mean by culture? Simply put, to me, culture is about the shared mindset, and calling behaviors, it's a way we think and act in the day to day in our work, right. And so how many of you here are in product so to see?

Lots, how many of you engineering? How many design? I mean, big D design inclusive? Okay, awesome. So it's a really mixed audience, I love that. What I'm excited to talk about today is how MasterCard is actually creating professional guilds within the company that is at the core of our cultural transformation. And guilds were around for, I would say, I don't know, five years in the company, but we're kind of limited to a very one part corner of our company. But what if you go back even further, I don't know if you've have these in your companies. But the gills have their roots in the medieval associations, where craftsmen would oversee their various crafts and trades and this is a quite famous Rembrandt photo of the drapers guild.

But what's really cool about what's happening now inside of MasterCard is we're establishing guilds for critical functions that are for MasterCard, they're not just one business unit, I'm going to talk about the customer experience and design guild. But we also have creating have created a software developer engineering guild, we have a product guild, we have Biz Ops guild, there are about eight in total. And this is something that I think I'm so excited about, because we're only about one year into our journey. But we've really seen the tremendous impact and what that can have, in the context of a culture within an organization.

So what I'm going to do is I'm going to take you through five steps, not necessarily sequential, but maybe five things we did in order to start to shift the culture inside of MasterCard as it relates to customer experience in design.

All right, I'm going to take this moment to sit so I can chat. Alright, so the first thing we had to do is we had to figure out who our guild members, right? We had to establish the people that we wanted to have in the guild. And the beautiful thing about beautiful complicated thing about MasterCard is that design had grown up pretty organically as a company. Since I'd arrived, meaning there were, I'd say, for larger teams that worked on multiple products and services, in a partnership relationship. And then there was a smattering of what it called sells, or pods that were embedded in product teams for specific products.

And the problem with that is that there were about as many ways of working, as you can imagine, as there were teams. And also the level of maturity within those teams was also varied. So the first thing we needed to do is we needed to figure out how are we going to govern because the idea of creating a guild, which was really wonderful, because we had not also not had a single sponsor from a leadership level for all of design. But what the guild enabled us to do is have the ability to govern the practice, all across MasterCard, and it was meant to be a community driven and governed by the community.

So the first thing that we did, is we created a governance structure. And this was a what we decided would be the best way to kind of organize and to make decisions and really make this feel like it was a community driven thing. So we have a board, just like you would have a board of directors, comprised of the senior most leaders of various disciplines. And we even have people who are hired in to be disciplined leads, we have someone who is the VP for content design, she is responsible for ensuring that we're driving Best Practices along with her team across MasterCard. And then we have a core team. And the beautiful thing about this is that these aren't people who are doing this as a hobby, or a volunteer effort on top of their day jobs. They have time carved out, we have one person who is a full time program manager for the guild. But the others have specific portion of their time carved out to play a specific role in their area. So this is important. We needed that governance structure.

And then what we did next is we had to figure out what are our disciplines? We had in one area and my team we had codified these job families as they're as they're called and MasterCard. But we needed to do it for the company because it was all over the place. There were designers who were labelled software engineers, just because no one knows where to put them. Right? I see someone shaking their head. You know, designer was in product development. And so that just didn't help anyone really. And nor did it help the practitioner. So what we decided to do is move away from the catch all phrase of UX.

And part of that was, and I'll be quite honest, is had a lot of baggage inside of MasterCard, they had a lot of baggage, because people perceive to the UX team is the folks who worked on the screens. Yes, versus how it works in the strategy and all of that. So what we did is we defined three primary job families, which are the ones that you see at the top, and they're probably recognizable. Product experience design would be the generalist, right, the person who's really thinking about the overall how it works, as well as the functionality and closer to a UX generalist. But we were, that was really important to call it product experience design. And then content design, which I feel is woefully still underrepresented within companies today. I don't know if you see that as well, because it's so important as a discipline to drive an excellent experience.

So then we have three secondary, and these people, there are fewer of them. But it was important to have people focus on experience strategy, really looking at market landscape, partnering with product about customer value propositions, looking at early stage needs, discovery, things like that. And then we have smaller number of visual designers, and then design ops, which is pretty nascent. But the beautiful thing is we didn't intend for this to be everyone has only one role. And there are some people, all I do is experienced research, which is great. But we also have product experience designers who have experienced stuff and also do research. And we love that too. Because we want to create what I would refer to as T shaped people, people who have depth as well as breadth, especially as they go up in the world. And so once we codified our job families, we needed to help people figure out what does that mean to be in this role? And what do they do?

So the first thing I wanted to call out is this idea of inter disciplinary teams. One of the other biases that I'm guessing I'll see some shaking heads around is that someone needs a designer and they want a unicorn, right? One person, I just need that designer, okay, but you probably are not going to get the best value out of that, nor will that person want to stay in work for you very long. Right? This is a really competitive market. And people want great conditions, they want to work within teams, they want to work collaboratively with people they can learn from. And so we started to talk about this idea. And we also aligned it to what's called our studio framework, which we'll talk a little bit later, but our product guild, and another team is really looking at how we're, I'd say standardizing our go to market process to de risk our investments with product councils at every step of the way. And so that's now called the studio. It's not meant to be a process, but really a framework. And so basically, we're saying there's a mix of these disciplines that should be present and doesn't mean that every dot is a single person, but a mix of disciplines. And it could change depending on the size and the complexity of the effort, as many of you guys know.

And so then we had to create a career framework for each of the job families. And I can't believe we just didn't have that as long as I've been at MasterCard, because it was kind of defined within teams like what does it mean for me to get promoted from a senior to the next level? What am I expected to do in my role. And so what we did, I don't know if this has been work, because this is a small video. So I might have to talk through it. But this is an example the career navigator we have all the functions on the left. And not all of these functions have guilds. But there's customer experience in design, we have a guild, those are the six job families. And if you are a person who's you know, just joined MasterCard is a product experienced designer and you want to understand what you can do.

Oh, it's working. So I've got a product experience design. I can see the trees for an individual contributor or people manager, what does it mean to be a director, I can see everything that's expected of me job specific experience as well as skills they call them technical skills, and I like the nomenclature, but it's really the things that you do. And so one of the skills that we've listed so there are skills for each of the job families is concept ideation and solution design. So what does it mean to be advanced? What does it mean to be an expert. And so this was a great way to level set all of this stuff across MasterCard, because even within my team, because we kind of merged were a merger of multiple teams there were not consistent expectations around what we should be doing.

The other thing about this career framework is it was somewhat aspirational. I mentioned our business model and the challenges that MasterCard has, we can't just pick up and do what Spotify does really well, that will not work for MasterCard. We can learn from all sorts of examples out there, but we needed to find and identify the skills that were important for what we're trying to do, and how we're organizing ourselves and how we're trying to operate as a company. Okay, so that was the first thing. So the second thing is, now we have to find out. Okay, we have a guild, we have card carrying members, as we like to call them. So what can we do? What skills do they have? And why is this important? Well, first of all, we wanted to understand how to strengthen the guild, I firmly believe that our maturity as a community in MasterCard is key to driving business success, creating products that will actually get used and scale and market we need to have mature highly skilled teams.

And also, we needed a baseline because we needed to show our leadership, why we needed to invest in learning and development, what skills gaps we needed to close. And then the third thing is we wanted to show the guild members that we're listening to them, we actually hear you and we want to help you grow. Because what I've been hearing is that one of the most important things for people nowadays, when they're applying for jobs is what are you going to do for me? What learning and development are you going to provide? And so this part was super important. But we'd what we decided is, we didn't want to call it an assessment, we didn't want it to feel like a test because that would feel really weird. And we didn't want people to feel that there'd be like negative repercussions for having gone through this. So we decided to call it an inventory, which is a little bit safer. It's about asking people, hey, have these skills based on the career framework? How many times have you done it, a few times, never, or you've done it so many times that you can actually lead teams doing this exercise. And that's pretty safe, so that people aren't over, are being over optimistic about what they can do. And it just gives us a reit.

But doesn't tell us about the quality, but it just tells us what people are doing. So this is an example of the readout that came back just for product experience design. So those are the six skills within which there are a number of other things, and I'll talk about one that came out low says this is for five point scale. Most of it wasn't bad. So one of those that came up low was customer journey management. Now we struggle with this name, this is what's getting closer to service design. But we didn't want to call it service design because it was too big. And we're not ready for it. I don't think yet. But it's really about understanding the customer, the end customer in such a way that you can make strategic decisions, you can bring insights to there on that journey. You could keep managing the journey over time and measuring. There's lots of applications for it inside of MasterCard, all the way through commercialize. And so people were going to journey mapping, yeah, most people can do that.

Not that everyone understands the same meaning of what that looks like or what good looks like. But where we saw gaps where Oh blueprinting mapping front and backstage interactions, using mapping to identify opportunities for differentiation tying it to research and data. Not so great. So that was an area of opportunity for us.

Then we've learned so many things about this, they had about an 89% response rate, which is pretty incredible. And what we found is, is really interesting, too, so that top graph is basically showing the mix of people in a particular job family. So overwhelmingly, most of our population, or product experienced designers, which made sense to we have fewer dedicated, experienced researchers, fewer experienced strategist with that title. But the second bottom graph shows that there's a bigger mix that goes beyond what people have. So that was super interesting. And it actually didn't surprise us at all. And we cut the data in so many ways, but some of the other takeaways were. There were a lot of additional competence cease yet there aren't as often limited in nature, maybe more like a sprinkling of additional things versus true expertise. And we realized that almost everyone would benefit from learning new skills. I don't think anyone could say that they can't.

But if at least, the skills inventory enabled us to say that. And then finally, the lack of skills progression is not clear, actually a lack of skills production, unclear in some org structures. But everybody wanted to learn 100%. And there was a whole list of things that we looked at, I hate to call them soft skills, but they were more like human leadership skills that people also wanted to learn as well. So I have to say, this is probably one of the best things we did, because it gave us that baseline. And it will set us up for what we want to do in this year, which I'll talk about a little later. All right, the third thing. So establishing a vision, if you think about a community, are the glue of culture, really. But a community is something that also has at its foundation needs to have a shared purpose and vision. How many of you guys have read the book Team of Teams? Anybody?

It's my boss's favorite book, because I had to read it. I listen to read it, whatever. That's one of those books. But it's really interesting, but like the things that enables autonomous, interdependent teams who work together and can make decisions without top down instructions, or the teams that have shared visions. It's super important, I think that goes within integrated, you know, products teams. And so you know, taking a cue from that notion, you know, we spent some time really thinking about what are we doing. And so, at the highest level, our vision is pretty simple. We want to strengthen and grow and not just grow our people, but grow our numbers as well. And we want to accelerate by doing so we're going to help MasterCard move faster, and this cultural change, so that we can create experiences that will fuel our business.

Because it's not enough that we can sell things they have to get used. That's the thing we keep saying over and over again. And the other piece of the vision, the secondary level is clarifying the scope of design. Now, I don't know about you guys, but I've seen inside MasterCard, I've seen it in places I've worked before MasterCard, but there's not always a common agreement in terms of what design does should do, how do they function. And a lot of people will bring their perspectives based on where they worked before where they worked, you know, and other places of MasterCard. So clarifying the scope. And the role. And the relationship is really important. How many of you talked about the three legs of the stool, where somebody cut, sometimes people call this the balance breakthrough model? That's it. Anyway, this is really important to me.

Because at the end of the day, it should be a partnership. There should be literacy across the board. So those of you who are product and engineering, you've should ideally have a design lead, who's at the seat of the table with you. Why, because design is what will ensure desirability, designed for us, in partnership with product and engineering will ensure that products get used. And so when we think about the scope, at the highest level, it's not getting into we create journey maps, and we do wireframes and stuff like that No, at the highest level, it's design is going to help us make sure that we're building the right things. Why? Because we're bringing in the right research to validate our hypotheses and identifying problem spaces to go after. It's going to help ensure in collaboration with product and engineering that we're building and designing things, right?

Because we're actually doing experimentation. We're learning from research in the process of prototyping and deeper design. What are the right features? Are we creating an experience? That's great. And then finally, this is unique to MasterCard. Are we making it easy to deliver through our customers? So it's not only the interactions that MasterCard has with our partners in that go to market process, but it's about ensuring that they can successfully deliver and what things do we need to help them with because they're all different? You know, traditional banks, they need a lot of help FinTech is less so. And so we have to look after that.

Now the great thing about this is that we have a common language, people are starting to use this inside of MasterCard, and starting to talk about the three legs of the stool. And because of our partnership with a product Guild, and engineering correct, quite frankly, they're saying the same thing. So it's not just us doing it not waving our flag and hoping that people get on board. It's becoming a common framework, if you will. Now to take it a step further to talk about what we do. This is our studio framework. At the highest level, it looks like a process. But it's really the stage gates where things go through product counsel to make sure that they're going, we're de risking investments at the next stage. Because we have a ton of things like all the things that go the product counsel, we want to kill things early on. Because there's no point in building or spending time on a product that's not going to be successful.

Or that's gonna only be adopted by four customers in the world, that doesn't make business sense. And so when we talk about what we do, again, we have a detailed list of activities and deliverables and all of that stuff. But at the highest level. What did your guild members do? Well, we actually help support concept development and value proposition design. And then why we want to validate desirability in the product value proposition why we want to ensure that the experience is differentiated. That's really important. And this is something that just speaks to everyone. And so people can know and will say, we don't want that. They do want that.

But it also gives the team wherever they sit, whether in those small cells or the bigger teams when they're partnering with product teams, because sometimes you get pushback. I don't know if you've heard this, but no, we don't have time for research, sorry. Well, if you don't have time for research, you might end up spending 100 times more later for not having done that research. And so it's really important to arm your people with the ability to be a partner and say, hey, I think we probably need to do this. And that's why we're and this is how we're working in MasterCard, no one can argue. So creating that vision is really, really key. But at the end of the day, you also need to build a community. And you need to build a community that people want to engage with that people where people see value in the community. And so we wanted to really create something that was not just a community in name, the idea of community can seem a little nebulous, right?

Community, we're a community of scientists, or, you know, we're community of practitioners. But how can you build a community that actually has real fellowship that that learns from each other? That actually is invested in building things together. That's a very different kind of community. And so we thought a lot about that. And going back to the team of teams, things we created, let's see if this video works, I'm going to try it out. We said we need some values, what are our team values? So what did what designers do and they went off and got input from people synthesize the results and created a manifesto for the teams for the for the for the guilt, so let's see if this works.

We deliver innovative yet practical solutions with passion and pride. We believe design thinking is just playing thinking. We are visionaries.

We believe that design goes deeper than an interface, and curiosity should be rewarded. We are strategic minds.

We are not afraid to have difficult conversations, asking hard questions, build stronger business. We are guardians of customer experience.

We celebrate individual contributions and expertise, but we share our success. We know it's our responsibility to create a more inclusive supportive and authentic workspace. We are each other's community. We are MasterCard, CX and design.

That's so nice. Thank you expect that but it always is touching me when I whenever I see that. Anyway, so so that was good. You know, we have to keep coming back to the values you just can't share it once but it does start to seep into consciousness. So what are the ways to engage? These are just some of the things that we set up one of the things that I'm most excited about our Spotlight series we have that every six two weeks or so, where guild members come and share case studies of something new that they learned a new method, you know, et cetera. And it's a great way for people to come. And we actually have friends with the guild, we have more and more friends of the guild than we have guild members.

So we encourage product and engineering and others that are, I will call them CX or design curious to join as well. And they pop in, because they want to learn, we also have, we have a fantastic mentorship program, about 40% of our guild was participating as a mentor or mentee for people who wanted to learn from someone across the organization or within another team. We also what else going to come at we have committees, this is really important because we established committees that also were part of our governance structure, so that if it's a guild run by people, we have a tools committee, we have a Community Engagement Committee, we have a Learning and Development Committee, we have a best practices committee. And so each one of those committees has a lead. And then there are no members that they meet, I don't know how often, quite frankly, but they actually make decisions.

And they bring ideas forward in those key areas. And we also, when I'm really excited about is three weeks from now, we're going to have our first ever internal conference, I know a lot of companies do this, this is the first time we've done it. But we are so excited about this, because it's going to kick off our LND program, learning and development program for 2022. focused on three of the key skills that we pulled out of the inventories, we have blocks dedicated to those skills. And we're so excited about the programming that we're going to open it up to all guilds or anyone who wants to come, because we've also found that it's really important to drive literacy and understanding amongst our partners to drive better collaboration. And so there are things to learn and understand that we think will be really valuable for all people.

And then what are the outcomes for this so far, so we haven't done an employee engagement survey, or a guild survey yet about sentiments with the community so far, but the numbers really speak for themselves for this year, we're really aiming for clear measurable outcomes, in terms of the number of people who are attending events, increasing our mentorship program, as well as improving the skills. So we're going to go deeper into the skills development, to be able to measure cohorts from their baseline going forward. And the last one, tools and ways of working you can't forget about tools, right?

So everything up to now just required the board the core team, partnership with HR, and participation by the community didn't require any budget at all, which is fantastic, just a lot of people, a lot of sweat equity going into it. But when it came to tools we had and ways of working or learning and development, we had some investments we need to make. And the great thing about what we were doing is this there was sponsorship from the top, they knew we needed funding. And so there were many conversations had around, or what's the baseline set of tools, because in order for people to collaborate, and to share files, and to move from one team to another, you want to have a common suite. So this is just an example of how we were kind of sharing the story to leadership. It's not the final list. But you have to help people understand what tools you have and what they're for. And so we have research tools. And we have tools such as our proprietary design system that everyone's using. And we have tools for collaboration. And what we realized is a lot of these tools could actually be used by folks in product and engineering. And so that, you know made it even a stronger business case when it came to the investments.

It was just a question of you know how much the great thing about having a common suite of tools. In terms of the outcomes there is that one design system which we've been working out. For several years, this has made it 100% use for those who would need to use a design system, but it's reduced their time in production by 30 or 40%, giving them more time to be creative and to innovate. We have credits for the whole guild for research platform Weibo, where it's been a really great partner. And they don't have to ask for money to do some studies and they can do them more quickly. And so that just unlocked a whole bunch of things. And we're also moving to sigma which is really exciting.

So then learning and development I am proud I'm probably most excited about learning and development, because I just think it's so important. And I think people have been starving, quite honestly starving for the last few years, because for us, everything's been flat, it's hard to do things online, and people just want to grow. And so now we have a foundation for doing that. And our goal are, is twofold. We need to level set skills across the guild, because as I mentioned before, based on the skills inventory, they're quite uneven. And two, we want to strengthen and extend, we want people to be able to get new skills, and to grow from there. And so we are doing a couple of things related to our learning and development program. With our best practices committee, they're starting to unleash best practices that can be used to level set. And, frankly, keeps people from having to reinvent the wheel, we have a really great like friends in how to do friends and family interviews replete with a mural board and information around how to like synthesize the information. And by the way, anybody could use this, we consider this agnostic, if you're a product person, and you want to start doing interviews, fantastic.

Because we all need to come together and figure out what skills are missing in that team, not just within the design team, but across that cross functional team working on a product initiative. And the other thing to strengthen our skills. This is just a framework, I'm not going to go into the messy details. But we really thought comprehensively about how can we do this in a way that's effective and measurable. And so we thought about the sort of learning journey from awareness to for top line education to immersion, and then application. So after you went through a cohort goes through, let's say a deep focus on experience research, that would go apply what they've learned one of their day to day jobs, and then come back with a cohort and talk about what they learned at work, do they do anything new, and that sort of thing, they need that application piece.

And the great thing is when we create these materials, a lot of things we're creating in house and sometimes some within partnerships, but we feel like we can syndicate those through the studio to set up best practices that go beyond the guild as well. So I'm getting to the end, I think this is good time. Okay, I lost track when we started. But I just saw I said this, we're about a year in, as I said, a little over a year. And I think by 2024, I think this is going to be really solid. But when I think about the key takeaways right now, because I know it's been a challenge. And one of my sort of naivete is before having done this as you think from wherever you are, you can start to drive cultural change, and you can bring teams on board. And it's really hard, you can influence a team or a quarter of the organization, but you can't do it at scale. And so doing it at scale, no matter what size your organization is, to me requires first and foremost that you have a coordinated effort doesn't have to be a guild, it could be something else, with sponsorship from leadership.

And you also need people who are going to work on this as part of their job, what I often have seen as you know, people creating toolkits and things like that, you know, outside of their day to day, and that just doesn't work in order to make it effective. And you need budget to be able to do that, and sometimes for the people. And then finally, almost finally, every corner requirements partnership and collaboration, we could not done this, if we were doing this in a silo, we were really lucky that it was not just a customer experience and design guild, but we're standing of a product guild, an engineering guild kind of started before we did. And we're looking at how we share things across the board. We're putting something in the product guilds newsletter, so they hear about what we're doing and vice versa. And that's really helped drive that common narrative and story that is so important for reshaping our own culture at MasterCard, as well as you know, our operating model, and how we better collaborate and then goes without saying you got to get past passion and in participation for the team. And what I found is I think this has kind of really energized people in a way.

We probably have more work to do, but there's a core where it's like, alright, we're headed somewhere. This feels good. And I think that's really important. Now when it comes to just overall satisfaction. So I hope this was useful in some way and that you learned something practical that you can actually think about. Because I do think doing this is really hard. And, you know, the idea of cultural change is no longer the culture, I should say the thing that is heard in the halls of HR, or the checkbox fulfilled by putting a couple of pool tables, you know, somewhere on your open plan for. Culture has become a boardroom CEO level topic. But not all people know how to get there. I didn't know how to get there. But after having gone through this, I see how it can change in some ways. And so that's my story. So thank you, everyone.

Thank you so much, Cindy. That was incredible. We're doing some of these things at LinkedIn that I'm really excited to chat with you about. But a lot of I also was inspired by so many of the ideas. And one of the things that I noticed too, is how beautiful your slides are, and how much that helps in the presentation. Yeah, but I'm sure also internally like using them internally to communicate what your team has done. And what you've done is really inspirational. I am assuming there are tons of questions in the audience. I have time for one if we want to do that. Okay. There's a throw mic, and I don't want to throw it. But someone here, I see a question in there.

Hi, thank you for sharing your knowledge and your story. Something that caught my attention was that the third point that you mentioned, was setting a vision. And I would have imagined or I would have thought that that would be like, more like something that comes up earlier in the process rather than like, a third or later in the process. Can you explain sort of like the rationale behind that?

Yeah, yeah. And that's a good point. Because I did have one small point, because I wanted to, and I'm glad you're bringing this up. So I want to emphasize these were not the sequential steps. We were doing all, quite frankly, we're doing steps one through four simultaneously. Right? It was just sort of we did have to start with the what are the job families? What's the career framework? Assign the job families. And then once you get it, you're actually in our HR system. Thank you know, you're guilty. You have the data. Once we had the Gildan members then it was the vision and the community and all that stuff. That were kind of happening at the same time. But I would agree you have to start with that. So that was you know, in our kickoff. We had a vision then that we started to evolve as we learned more. Yeah, I agree.

Thank you. I really appreciate you taking another question. Another round of applause for Cindy, please.