Generational Leadership: How Our Careers Affect & Shape Our Children

Pamela Mead, Claire Larson at UXDX EMEA. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pzqfwbvTUk

Readable transcript: edited from the recording's captions for readability (fillers and false starts removed, punctuation and section headings added). Wording is the speaker's own. Timestamps are positions in the video. Names marked [?] could not be verified against the audio.

Introductions and growing up across countries

[00:00:00] Catherine: How many of you live in a different country, for work, to where you grew up? Hands up. And how many of you have based that on work or life choices? How many of you based it on work choices? A few, great. It's a conversation that came up with Pamela. We were having a chat in New York on life and everything, and I wanted to chat to Pamela more and more every time I met her. So I wanted to get up on stage to really talk to Pamela and her daughter Claire about generational leadership. We often think about our work and how that affects our family and the choices we make in life, and I think Pamela and Claire have some really interesting insights that have been invaluable to me, because I see a lot of myself as a workaholic, and we'll go into that, like Pamela is. And she has such a high-achieving daughter as well. So I'd like to start by maybe both of you introducing yourselves. Pamela, if you could go first. Apparently you've recently got a new job. You're currently SVP of Design at SumUp.

[00:01:17] Pamela: Yes, it's the same job, but it's just getting more interesting and complicated, if you will. I think you wanted a little bit of the background, because you introduced the idea of growing up in different countries. I was actually born in Germany, many, many, many years ago, into a family of super strong women. I'm happy to say I'm the only one yet of all the women who isn't divorced. So it was all women, and everybody was working because of necessity. And because it was the late 60s, I really grew up with this mindset that as a woman I could build my own career. I could really forge my own life and forge my own future.

[00:01:58] I moved to the States as a teenager, to Minneapolis. It was a bit of a dramatic, challenging move, because I had just spent two years at an all-girls boarding school in the Alps, and I was dropped into junior high. I don't know if you know anything about junior high in America, but it's challenging, to say the least. And what I didn't know either is that in some of the courses I took, it was the first year that girls were allowed in them. I took welding, I took plastics. Really great, fun classes, but girls were still expected to do home economics. So not only was I weird in that I spoke differently, and I also didn't understand half of what people were saying to me, but I also put myself into positions that were just really interesting to me but were also unusual. And I would say that really shaped my resilience, if you will, a little bit my stubbornness, my persistence, which I think will come into play later on when we talk about my career, because it really comes back.

[00:03:03] So I spent time in the United States. I went all over, from Minneapolis to Chicago, back to Minneapolis, back to Chicago for graduate school, spent some time in Boston working in design consulting, and then 16 years in the Bay Area, both in consulting in the dot-com era, which was really quite exhilarating, exciting and crazy, but then also later on inside of companies, because I was really passionate about working in technology. And it was really the opportunity to come to Spain, which was quite unexpected, that brought us as a family back to Europe, which in some ways is something I'd always wanted, because I wanted to come back to Europe as an adult and experience that kind of life here. We wanted to stay five years, and what is it now, 12 years later, we're still in Europe.

[00:03:52] Along the way, as I crisscrossed the United States, I met up with my husband, who I had originally met in college, and we decided to spend time together in the Bay Area, got married in 2000, and then Claire joined us in 2003. And interestingly, it's a reverse journey for Claire, because we came to Europe. I wanted to give her a bit of that European flavor, because I married what I always say is the most American man I ever met. So I wanted to introduce a little bit of that European-ness and bring in the roots. And lo and behold, you've spent five, six years in the Bay Area, six years in Spain, six years in Germany, and now two years in Edinburgh. So it's an interesting twist of events.

Early career and the dot-com era

[00:04:43] Catherine: And go through the earlier days of your career. What was that like? Could you talk a little bit more about that?

[00:04:51] Pamela: Yeah. I'm not sure if anybody's done the calculus, but when I talk about the early days of my design career, it really truly was before technology really hit design. I actually studied art history and fine arts, and was a typist after I graduated, because I couldn't figure out what to do. I discovered design and started to take some night classes. I was really lucky that I had a teacher who believed in technology and methodology, who was very engaged in the computer science, computer graphics community in Minneapolis. And so it really nurtured my interest in how we actually shape technology, not just how we use it.

[00:05:35] And when I realized that I didn't think I was going to become a stellar graphic designer, I was really looking for something that would give me an angle to my career, an angle to design that would differentiate me. And that led me naturally to the Institute of Design in Chicago, where I studied some computer science along with design, and learned a lot about user research-based insight and systems thinking, which I solidified as part of my design DNA at Doblin, which is a design consulting firm. And then I started to forge my own way by going to Boston and eventually to the Bay Area.

[00:06:09] I think as a design leader, what was really instrumental for me was that crazy dot-com era, where nothing that I had ever learned or done before was done in the same way. Expectations for doing projects were short. They were backwards from a process perspective. And I needed to really adapt my processes, my approaches, to work with these crazy clients. I was running multi-million dollar client engagements at MetaDesign, and I was really reinventing, with every project, how we actually approached it. And I think that gave me a bit of a fearlessness, in my belief that my foundation in design could really serve me well and take me anywhere. And then as I progressed further, by the way, I was laid off more than once, and the dot-com bust was one of them, I started a little bit of my own consulting. Claire came along, and then we took on the journey to Telefónica and Spain, which was, I think, probably my most instrumental career move.

Balancing a career and raising a family

[00:07:15] Catherine: I'd love to talk about your layoffs and the reasons for that, but I want to stick to my thoughts, because I know a little bit of the background. Family: what was it like for you in your career, trying to be the best of the best and trying to raise a family? What was that like?

[00:07:34] Pamela: I started late with my family, so I really was able to put all of my heart and soul into my career from pretty early on, and really engage in that kind of revolution and innovative thinking that we were doing at the time. When it was initially just my husband and me, he worked in the theater, and I think that worked really quite well. We had a great dynamic. But then when Claire came along, it changed a little bit more. Finding that balance between being career focused and raising a family initially worked pretty well, because we were both working, but at different hours of the day. But I think when we went to Spain, it became a little more different, because Tom had to put his career on hold, because of circumstances and because it was Spain, which gave me of course an opportunity to focus on my career. As you know, that brought with it some ramifications and challenges.

[00:08:36] Catherine: Yes. And so you chose your career over his?

[00:08:45] Pamela: It truly evolved that way. It wasn't planned this way. My husband is in the performing arts and is extremely passionate about his work, and excellent at it, and very complementary to my work. So we didn't have any plans to not both work. I think we both embarked on coming to Spain for the same reasons, as an adventure, a five-year plan, to be in Europe, for him to experience this a little bit. And we thought we could actually handle five years, and then we'd go back to the States, and his job would be the dominant job, and then I would adjust. And that just didn't work out that way.

[00:09:32] It was a lot harder to come back to the States. People weren't hiring anybody who was even remotely overseas. And when we decided we also wanted to stay in Europe, we moved to Germany, where again we thought it would be easier for him to find a job, and that again didn't work out as planned. I think then you end up in ageism a little bit, and you end up being overqualified for the roles, and it became a lot harder for him to find his way. He's now working in a wine store and getting certifications. We are avid wine drinkers, so this is a great benefit. He also had a saying, "If I'm American, let me be American in Europe," and wanted to start batting cages. Unfortunately COVID hit, so that was another setback. So now he's doing a video channel around cooking, because he spent really his whole time in Europe perfecting and putting all his love into cooking and regional foods. So coming back to your question, was that the plan? No.

[00:10:33] Catherine: It was the circumstances. And you don't think that he might have taken a backstep in his career because you were naturally, as you said, more dominant, and I guess progressing more in your career?

[00:10:50] Pamela: I think he was super supportive of that. I think that was really the motivation behind it.

[00:10:56] Catherine: Yes, great. I'm going to take a pause for a moment. You don't have to ask questions right now, but I'm going to ask you for any questions. If you've got family, if you're single, if you're looking to have a family, if you've got pressures around extended family, and you want to ask something or just contribute to the conversation, I'll ask you to join in in a moment. I want to get on to Claire first, though, so we get a bit of insight into you, Claire. This is quite a personal topic. I've been given permission to ask anything. So Claire, what was your opinion about work and career in general growing up, as a kid?

Claire: work seen through a child's eyes

[00:11:38] Claire: Well, I think before we moved to Spain I was less than six years old, so I didn't have a clue. But when we moved to Spain, my mother was working at Telefónica, and it was very time consuming and intensive for her. And I've learned a lot more about the work that she was doing in the last three, four years. My mother has mentioned to me that when I was about eight years old, when we were in Spain, I told her that I did not want to work. I don't remember saying this, but I know why I would have said it, which is that at that time my mother was just very stressed. You had so many big projects to work on, you had so many teams, so many people to deal with, politically as well, that she was somewhat distant when she was home, just because she spent so much of her energy at work during the day.

[00:12:38] And then she was also traveling a lot. I remember her going all over Europe. She went to Brazil and such. And so when she was gone I would miss her, because my mother was gone for a week or two at a time, and I remember for years I would sleep with a sweater of hers next to my pillow when she traveled. So I think at that time I saw work as something that was stressful and time consuming and not really fun. Because my dad was a stay-at-home dad, I grew up with the reversed gender roles of the classic family dynamic, where my mother was the one who was working all the time and gone, and my dad was a stay-at-home parent. So I spent a lot of time with him just doing everyday fun things. We'd go get ice cream in the park every week.

[00:13:28] And so I think my sense was that I didn't want to work, because I didn't want to grow up and just be busy all the time and not present at home, and so stressed. That's of course changed as I've gotten older, because now I understand what she was doing at the time. I understand more of the responsibilities that you have as an adult. And I've also spoken to my mother about why she loves what she does, why she works so hard at it, and what she enjoys about her work. And so I understand now that even though it can be incredibly stressful and difficult, there's also a joy in it.

[00:14:07] Catherine: Interesting. You speak quite negatively about work and going into work, and as a child I would never have had a concept like that. Has that impression of work changed as you now enter the workforce, as you're starting off in your chosen career?

[00:14:27] Claire: Absolutely. I think when I was young, I didn't think about these things concretely. I didn't think specifically, "Oh, I don't want to have a career, I don't want to work." Apparently I did, during this one conversation that I do not remember. But I understand that at the time it just had negative connotations, and it didn't seem enjoyable and fun. But now I know that I can have a career doing what I love, which is science and research, and so I'm actually quite optimistic about it. I think it can be sort of a calling, if I find the right type of position.

[00:15:07] Catherine: Interesting. And you say "if."

[00:15:10] Claire: Oh, I don't know what I want to do yet. I'm a second year undergraduate, so I have no idea.

[00:15:15] Catherine: She's studying astrophysics, for anyone who hasn't read the bio. Doesn't seem challenging at all.

Looking back: regrets and a six-month break

[00:15:22] Catherine: So Pamela, we've talked a little bit on the negative side, around the pressures of work and the effects on the family. Looking back on your career, I don't want to say at the height of it, but there's not much higher you can go in terms of your organization. There are always barriers to be broken, but you're incredibly senior in your position. Have you done a retrospective on your career to date? Any regrets, any thoughts on that?

[00:15:53] Pamela: I think there are a couple of things I still wholeheartedly endorse. The approach I took, to really excel at something, something a bit different, a little bit on the edge, I really believe in, and it still motivates me to this day to take a problem that I haven't encountered before and go with that. I also really believe in putting yourself wholeheartedly into a problem and putting in that extra energy to solve it. I think there's amazing work you can do. And I discovered for myself that I am the best leader when I lead from passion and vision and commitment, and I can bring teams together for that. So those are all the things that I don't regret. And I think the things that I just didn't always share around the dining room table.

[00:16:42] But I think all of that was completely okay when I was alone. I think as a career parent, that's where I missed the turn a little bit, to find that balance, which quite frankly was really challenging to find in these very demanding jobs that I took on, that I hadn't done before. So that's what I wish I could do again: just being a bit more present, knowing how to take that time, and being present to it.

[00:17:19] And I'd say there's a moment where I had a gift that was given to me. I didn't have to work for six months. It was in 2017. And it gave me time, time for myself, time to really unwind everything that I'd ever been in, and get off that, I don't know if it's a hamster wheel or treadmill or whatever it is, and just really reflect and get to myself. And I think in that context, Claire and I also had moments together that we hadn't had in quite a long time, and we were able to reconnect, I think, at a pretty pivotal point in her teenage years. And I think that's what I wish I would have done more of throughout. But I don't know what that perspective was for you, Claire, for me to be available, because I would like to hear what you think about that time.

[00:18:18] Claire: I completely agree that it was really important, because over those six months I turned 14. So I was at peak teenage attitude and mentality. And by that point, my mother's job at Telefónica was quite demanding, but then when we moved to Berlin it didn't really get any lighter. So by the time I was 13, I was used to my mother always having extra work to do in the evening. I'd come home from school, I'd chat to my dad while I made a snack, my mother would come home right before dinner, I would get some time to talk to her around the dining room table, but then as soon as dinner was done, back to the desk to finish up whatever emails you had. And of course we spent time together on vacations, over the weekends. We'd play games a lot as a family. But I think on the day-to-day level she felt more absent, and I think by the time I was 13, that bothered me a little bit more.

[00:19:24] And so I do remember, after those six months, really feeling a lot closer to my mother, because she was just there on a daily basis. She was home more, she had more energy to spend time with me. And I think it was incredibly valuable because of the age I was at. I was 13, 14 years old, and we got to get a lot closer and lay the foundation for the great relationship we have now. Because even once she went back to work, we had better communication, we were closer. And so as I grew up through my teenage years, we built on that relationship that was started when she could really shut off from work a bit more and just spend more time with me. It was really, really valuable.

[00:20:15] Catherine: Yeah, really interesting. And the guilt. I have a two-year-old, and already I'm seeing a lot of similarities. When we were just chatting about why we got here on the stage today, you were talking about, I cannot remember your age at the time, but you were stroking your mom's arm, just wanting to be hugged and loved, and your mom's mindset was, "I need to do work, I need her to just go to sleep." And I'm sure people in the audience might be stressed, thinking similar things, and the guilt might get to you. But it's really nice that you're acknowledging the six-month break and how that mentally changed you both, clearly. And on the guilt, I'm just going to pause and start asking for a question from the audience. If anyone in this audience isn't feeling really guilty about a certain relationship, I want to talk to you afterwards, because you must be doing something right. Does anyone have any questions?

Audience: judgment as a career-focused woman

[00:21:18] Catherine: A little bit of a shy audience. That's all right, we're going to continue. Oh, there's one. Sorry, it's really hard for me to see with the lights. Just got one down here. You can ask, and I can repeat it.

[00:21:39] Audience: How did you overcome those judgments? As a career-focused woman, were you ever judged by peers or family, and how did you overcome that?

[00:21:50] Pamela: Not really. I was also surrounded by other career women, not as many as the men, but I don't think I ever really experienced judgment of it. If anything, I applied my own judgment on the things that I wished I had done better. I didn't realize I hadn't baked with Claire until she was eight, and she didn't know the value of licking out a bowl of batter afterwards, and I'm like, "Where have I been?" But I think it's more my own judgment. Other people, no, not really. I think it was a question and a conversation that we had together, especially as career women, when we came together to really talk about that extra little bit that still comes with just being a mother, that is a bit different even if you're working. It's just a little bit of something else. It still needs to be taken care of, and how we feel about that.

Claire: how her parents' choices shaped her

[00:22:53] Catherine: Do keep the questions coming as well. Claire, I'm really interested in your opinion on how your parents' careers and choices have influenced you. Again, you're looking to be a high achiever in astrophysics. It's funny, you talk about the negatives of career and work, and not wanting to do it, and in my mind astrophysics sounds like one of the most stressful, male-dominated industries that you could possibly go into. So as much as you say you might be pigeonholed towards your dad's side, has your mum actually influenced you, subconsciously or anything?

[00:23:42] Claire: Well, I think by the time I was 12, 13, I don't think I had the sense that I didn't want to work. I always assumed that I would have a career. I've also known since I was about five years old that I wanted to be a scientist. At five years old I wanted to be an oceanographer, so it's changed a few times. But I always wanted to do science, and I wanted to do it because it's my passion, and because I want to spend my lifetime learning. So to me, going into astrophysics isn't, I don't see it as this really challenging thing. I just see it as really, really fun and really cool. And I chose it because at the end of high school I was like, the world is completely open to me, I can do anything, so why not choose what I find most interesting, which is astrophysics.

[00:24:35] And so I think in that sense my mother has been inspirational, because when we were in Spain we would have work colleagues and friends over for dinner a lot, and there'd be a lot of conversation about work. And I remember there were only about two female characters that I can remember from your discussions. So I always had the impression that my mother was one of the only powerful women in a group of a lot of powerful men. That was the impression I had in Spain. And so I think she's been, in that sense, a really good role model for the fact that you can be really successful in a male-dominated field. And since I always knew I was going to go into science, I never really questioned if I could.

[00:25:27] Catherine: Interesting. And do you think that would be the case across your peers? Because when I look at my background, it would be very different to that, more traditional. You almost had female roles and male roles. Like architecture, for me: I was veered away from it. You're talking about the world as your oyster. To me it's a rarity to have that. Would your peers say something similar to that?

[00:25:53] Claire: None of this felt like a very radical position, because all my friends, all the girls I knew growing up, we all felt the same. We were all just trying to figure out what we liked, what we wanted to do, same as all the guys. And I have friends who are doing history, who are doing politics, studying medicine, veterinary medicine, English. So I think we all had the sense that we just had to figure out what we wanted to do, and then we just had to go for it.

[00:26:27] Catherine: Yeah, interesting. And what has been the biggest learning from your parents, in terms of where your career is taking you?

[00:26:39] Claire: Well, my mother has always told me, for years, that I will probably be working in fields, or working on technologies, that don't exist today, because of how her career was shaped. And so I think one of the things I take from both my parents, actually, is that I need to keep an open mind to the opportunities that could come my way, because you never know what could happen. My father did quite a variety of jobs in the theater industry, and my mother, I don't think you were expecting to move to Spain, right? So I think my one lesson from them is just: anything can happen, really. You don't know where the next step will take you.

Following intuition to the next challenge

[00:27:28] Catherine: Yeah. And Pamela, you talked about a five-year plan, as it were. It ended up being almost every five years, whether it be Spain, the US, Germany. Was that always in your mind, or did it evolve because of work?

[00:27:46] Pamela: It definitely evolved because of work. I was saying earlier that, in some kind of interesting way, Claire's life experience mirrors mine. I think I never lived in one place until I was in California for 16 years, and I didn't realize that until we moved. But I think it was a really amazing opportunity to go to Telefónica, and I really thought I could, and I did actually, build something from scratch, where I could do more of how I believed research should drive innovation and should drive product development, etc. And we did change the culture in amazing ways.

[00:28:25] I think then the decision to stay in Europe was a hybrid. It was really personal and somewhat circumstantial, because it turned out it wasn't so easy to go back to the States. But we also really decided as a family that we wanted to stay, and we still had family in Germany, and so we wanted to get a little bit closer to Germany. We wanted Claire to speak German again. And so it was taking advantage of the opportunity as it opened up. A former colleague of mine from Palm knew I was looking, and he was in Berlin, and heavily recruited me, and it was about the right time for us to leave Spain. So yes, it's been somewhat intentional but also very organic, and I would say that in general has been my path in my career. It's been very much following my intuition to the next challenge, and really growing with that, taking the opportunities.

[00:29:27] Catherine: Yeah. I really want to ask you this question. What advice would you give your younger self, with the benefit of going through it all? What's the one piece of advice that you might give yourself?

[00:29:41] Pamela: I think it's a little bit what I said earlier: really believing in excellence, personal integrity, in building trust. I think also a certain fearlessness, to try new things. And then I think as a woman there is a bit of this kind of persistence, of making things happen, and leaving more of the doubt behind, and just really going for it.

[00:30:13] Catherine: To me, your personality and the choices that you've made have always been bold moves. You've always been brave. It's "feel the fear and do it anyway." That's the impression that I've always got from you. So you talk about fear, and I find that you've taken very brave decisions in your career. I don't think there are many people that would switch countries and continents with different languages. To me, working in a foreign country with a second language is daunting and scary in itself.

[00:30:47] Pamela: Let me just say, I'm sort of glad we didn't know what we were doing. In retrospect, packing up the house and packing the bags and moving to Madrid, and my husband, who was actually living in Minneapolis at the time, said, "See you in six months." I didn't know what I was doing. So a certain amount of naivety is sometimes good.

What mother and daughter would ask each other

[00:31:16] Catherine: I have another one. When we were talking about this, you both genuinely gave me the opportunity to ask you anything, and I love your relationship. I think you've got a wonderful relationship as a mother and daughter. Is there any question that you would ask each other? You're both quite open with each other, but what would you like to ask each other around this topic? Let's go with you, Claire, first.

[00:31:49] Claire: I think one thing to ask you would be: do you have specific advice for being a woman in a space where it's mostly men, a male-dominated career?

[00:32:03] Pamela: You need to know your stuff. You need to be really good, more so. It helps to have the confidence that goes with it. I think it gets back a little bit to that fearlessness and taking the opportunities. And I would just say, I've talked to a lot of colleagues and women friends, and I do think we are plagued with self-doubt maybe a smidge more than men. So just not to let that dominate, but have that internal trust and confidence.

[00:32:46] Catherine: That's what I feel like I'm getting from you: it's almost internal doubt, over external people pushing you down. It doesn't seem like you've actually had many barriers, aside from the ones that you've created yourself by making it more complicated.

[00:33:02] Pamela: Yeah. But I talked earlier a bit about my move to America, and I said that it created a certain amount of, not even fearlessness, persistence, because I couldn't care about how weird and different I was. I had to really stay focused on what I wanted to do and overcome. There's still a very strong emotional discomfort in being an outsider and wanting to be with friends and wanting to be with peers. But just think: when I went to Telefónica, I was a woman in a man's world, I didn't speak the language, and I was doing design, talk about the classic old-school environment. That was about the same thing. And so turning all of those potential negatives into something positive, I think, is how I've chosen to really deal with the sometimes very tough moments where I had a lot of self-doubt.

[00:34:01] Catherine: Okay. Would you ask Claire anything?

[00:34:05] Pamela: Well, what would be the one thing that you really wished I had done differently? Ouch.

[00:34:16] Claire: I've been limited to one, so I don't know about the whole list. I'll really guilt-trip you right now. I think, well, the impossible ask, the thing I know is pretty impossible to do, was to bring slightly less of the stress home to me. I think by the time I was 13, 14, that was just a bit much. I didn't appreciate it, so to speak. I would have much preferred to have you be less stressed, so I could spend more time with you doing fun things, more arts and crafts things, just spending more time with you when you weren't in a stressed state of mind.

[00:35:07] But I think the one thing that's feasible would be to have just spent more time with you one-on-one, doing just fun activities. Some of the things I remember that I loved the most were when we made papier-mâché, when we made those Easter eggs. We blew out and painted gorgeous Easter eggs for several years, and that was always a really fun thing, because you weren't stressed about work, or at least you weren't showing it. It was just the two of us doing a fun activity together. And I think as I've gotten older we've been able to do more of that. So I think it was just a little bit more. It didn't even have to be a really big excursion. Just some more small routines where we could spend time together, just the two of us, would have been really nice.

[00:36:00] Catherine: And just jumping in with my impression, from the conversations that we've had: it's almost that you felt like you couldn't share stuff, that you held a lot in. So it's really interesting to get that answer, because in my mind you're both overwhelmed, and neither of you is openly talking about it, and there's a ball of stress there. So that's just an interesting observation, I guess.

Audience: stepping back, and whether it would differ for a father

[00:36:24] Catherine: Do we have any questions from the audience? We have time for one. Who's going to be brave enough? Is there anyone online that would also like to? You're closer. Oh, we've got one, sorry. Hands high enough, yeah.

[00:36:40] Audience: Just one question for Pamela. I was wondering if you ever thought about taking less responsibility, or doing a job that was less stressful, to be more with your family and find that balance?

[00:36:52] Pamela: I did make that decision at one point. My job at Yahoo was, well, we were at the bleeding edge of mobile for a company that didn't recognize it. I did that for two years, with a very, very, very demanding boss, and I decided to go and join the Yahoo research lab instead, for about a year, and then I got sidetracked into a startup, so that took care of that. But yes, that was a very conscious decision, to actually give up the job that I really, really loved. I remember Tom sitting with Claire on his lap, saying this was a job I had dropped, and he would support it, and Claire would support it. But I really felt like I needed to slow down a little bit, and have less of a crazy commute, and be present for family. And it was really great. It was really great.

[00:37:55] Catherine: We are way over. Do we have time for one more? Go for it, just quickly.

[00:38:07] Audience: The topic of the discussion was all around how career affects your family, and particularly how your career affects children. I just wondered if you could give your view on how the conversation might be different if it's the father working. Because I don't think we would be having as much of a discussion about how that would affect a child as compared to if it's the mother.

[00:38:34] Pamela: I've thought about this quite often. I do think it is the same, only the flip side. I didn't have a father I grew up with, per se, but I just see that the parallels are there. I just don't know to what degree the social expectations, which for a while have been more of a match, this is what the man is supposed to be doing, versus the woman who's taking care of the family more, or has a career that's a bit secondary to the primary one, shift the dynamic or the sensitivities a little bit. I do think they're heightened as a career woman, because I go a little bit against the grain, against expectations, against the conventions, and there aren't as many role models that we can really reference to say how to do it well. So I do think there's a difference. Yet I think underpinning it there are probably a lot more similarities. If we had a career father and a son or a daughter here, I can't help but think that there would be similarities in the conversations.

[00:39:47] Claire: I agree. To reflect on that: I had a pretty traditional family dynamic, it's just that the gender roles were reversed. And I can easily imagine, if it were my father who had been spending so much energy at work and traveling a lot, that I would have missed him incredibly as well. You're right that the discussion we have around it is very different, because of societal norms or whatever around gender roles. But I could definitely see myself having the same type of difficulties in a relationship with my father, if he was the one who'd been away so much.

[00:40:31] Catherine: Really interesting. From my perspective, I've never had somebody so open and honest at an executive level, and get to that deep detail. I hope men will be interested in getting up on stage and sharing their challenges in their careers. Thank you so much to you both, and thank you to the audience for listening. I hope you really enjoyed that topic. Do catch up with Pamela and Claire. I've really enjoyed getting to know you over the last year, two years now, and Claire, you're a credit to both your parents. So thank you so much, and I'm going to hand you back to John now. Enjoy the rest of the day.

[00:41:07] Pamela: Thank you so much, Catherine.