Career Pivot: From UX <> Design <> Dev

Sébastien Fabre, Nathalie Christmann-Cooper at UXDX EMEA. Video: https://youtu.be/Pp2sPThrnec

Readable transcript: edited from the recording's captions for readability (fillers and false starts removed, punctuation and section headings added). Wording is the speaker's own. Timestamps are positions in the video. Names marked [?] could not be verified against the audio.

How we each got here

[00:00:00] Nathalie: I suppose if I start by going over what my actual background is. I started off as a graphic designer working for small ad agencies and design agencies in my 20s, and then I got married, had kids and became a work-from-home mum for the next 20 years, doing something completely unrelated to my training: running a fish tank business, which needed at some point to get online. That's where I started to develop the coding skills and switch over to engineering, because I needed to. I thought it would be a good way to upskill the graphics training that I had, and that's how I developed the coding bug.

[00:00:43] I built sites for others, won awards doing that, and that led to me setting up a tech startup, which then progressed on to going onto a coding bootcamp to build an app. That startup failed, but it gave me a really good opportunity to open the door into a new career in engineering. So that's how I ended up making that move across from designing to engineering. It wasn't necessarily a planned move, but each step along the way seemed to be the next sensible way forward. I'll pass over to you, Seb.

[00:01:20] Sébastien: Hi. Yeah, hello from sunny Billund in Denmark, the headquarters of LEGO. I'm happy to be here today to tell you a little bit about my journey. I was definitely a computer science geek in the early 2000s, working for Intel Corporation, and I fell in love with the business of usability engineering, and Don Norman, The Design of Everyday Things books and the accommodations[?] books, and decided to go on a journey where I could actually represent the end user instead of representing technology.

[00:02:09] I went in the direction of usability at the time, which became user experience with time, and I specialized in UX. I worked many, many years in the UX field, made it up to a senior director level at LEGO. And back in April we looked at the strategy — I will explain it maybe a bit later — but I actually went back to managing tech teams, being back in engineering, and I'm now leading engineering teams, still at LEGO. I will explain why, maybe later.

What made you go in this direction

[00:02:54] Sébastien: We have a bit of a dialogue. Nathalie, what made you go in this direction?

[00:03:04] Nathalie: I think it was after I'd done the coding bootcamp, just getting to experience what it was like to be coding full-time, working with other people. I could really see myself fitting into that, and it was something I really wanted to do. And it made perfect sense: after the kids had grown up, it gave me a real opportunity to get back out there into the workplace when I'd been at home for so long, and to make use of that previous experience that I had as well.

[00:03:41] It's given me a chance to have a second career that I'm actually finding really rewarding. Challenging, but rewarding. And being able to use that background as well, I've been able to progress quite quickly. I've been working as a developer now for over three years, I'm in my fourth year at Super[?], and I've drifted more towards the front end because of that previous design background. But I'm quite happy with that. I kind of wish I'd done it earlier, but then maybe I wouldn't have had that background to lean on that I do now.

[00:04:24] What about you? Because I know when we've spoken earlier, for you it wasn't an actual choice to make the switch from design to engineering. I just wondered how you found that.

[00:04:38] Sébastien: Yeah, actually it was quite a bit — I was a victim of my success, in a way. When I started with LEGO I worked on the central UX team, kind of a centre of excellence, and we operated throughout the organization, the digital organization, by positioning UX as a consultancy. You would actually go and help teams with UX skills. And all I did over the first two years here at LEGO, I pushed as much as possible to convince product teams to invest in UX, to get UX more taken care of by not only a UX consultant that will come and go, but actually have it as a team, share the responsibility.

[00:05:29] We created something called the UX Academy, where we also explained to people that weren't UX specialists the basics of UX: how do you run an interview, how do you prepare for usability testing, how do you present results and talk to your stakeholders. So we created some kind of internal academy system out of — I think we did like 12 modules, in sprints — and we trained this way a lot of people inside LEGO.

[00:06:02] Then we also had another approach, which was talking to VPs and senior directors and helping them understand the benefits, the return on investment of UX. And we managed to get, for example, a UX score as a normal measure for success, for value measure in products.

[00:06:28] So when we reorganized at the end of March, April, we actually decided to embed UX into every single product team — of course, teams that have a need for front-end and new user experience. But we didn't have this disposition of one central organization, one centre of excellence, anymore. So basically I lost my job. I was not needed as a senior director for UX anymore, and I think it was the right time to actually switch to the other side. Not preaching for UX all the time and saying you should think about your users and so on, but actually being on the product side and the engineering team, and actually acting and developing the products with a user in mind.

Going back into engineering

[00:07:28] Nathalie: How did you find that confidence-wise? Was that quite a scary prospect, to go back into that after — I know it was originally your background and then you switched to UX, but to then go back into engineering, was it a challenge, or did you slip into that role quite easily?

[00:07:48] Sébastien: Yeah, actually, surprisingly it wasn't a problem. It was actually very welcome from the engineering side to have somebody that had experience in user experience. And I had always kept a little bit of appetite for tech. I was doing side projects, pet projects, took part in hackathons for example on the side, which I really recommend everyone to do, as a kind of hobby or side activity, to explore and see other things around. So that went actually quite well.

[00:08:33] I don't know about you: how did you actually start coding? Was it something that made you switch? Did you have a calling or something? Did you wake up one morning and think, oh, I know what I need to do now?

Getting the coding bug

[00:08:49] Nathalie: Yeah, it started way back when we had that fish tank business, because there was real pressure for all the companies — this is going back quite a few years now — and there was this real drive that companies had to have that online presence, because if you didn't you weren't going to get customers calling any more. So it was something we had to do, but we didn't have a budget to get somebody else to do it. So I had to try and think outside of the box, as it were, with the constraints we had: how can we get it? And it was like, well, if I could do the graphics before, why can't I build a website?

[00:09:22] So it was going online of an evening once the kids had gone to bed and just working out how you actually put a site together, and I got to the stage with building SEO into that as well, of managing to keep the phones ringing. And then I think I quite liked the challenge of the problem solving, because I would sit there until quite late trying to make things do what they needed to do, and then that one minute when the code would suddenly work and I didn't quite know why, but it did — that just felt really good. I think I got addicted to that little adrenaline kick that I got when that moment happened.

[00:10:04] It's quite interesting, because I tried to get into it earlier, I suppose, when I was at school, because I did want to get across into computing, but it just wasn't encouraged. So I never had the chance earlier on to do it, but it must have been something that was always sitting there in the back of my mind. I always had an interest in tech and things like that. My brother got the computer and it was like, well, I've had the ZX Spectrum as well, but he got it, I didn't, sort of thing.

[00:10:35] So it seemed a natural progression from the graphics to then, how do you digitize that, how do you bring that into now? Learning those coding skills seemed to be really good, and then the bootcamp was just phenomenal, working through that really hard, massive learning curve. But I really enjoyed it. I like learning stuff, and once you move across into engineering you've got to keep learning all the time. So yeah, I just really enjoy it.

Having the power to make it happen

[00:11:10] Sébastien: Yeah, I think that's what you named, this problem-solving mindset. It's great to be on the UX side and tell people how you should do it this way, you should do it differently, but when you've got the power to actually make it happen, when you have learned the things that you sometimes think are impossible to do yourself or to learn — you are a fantastic example for actually proving people wrong. It's actually fantastic to be able to not moan and complain and criticize, but actually to act and do it, and be able to have this ability to change things for good.

[00:11:57] I was myself always, in my career, confronted with this kind of wall: yeah, your idea is fantastic, but no, no, no, we can't do that, it's impossible. And then I would spend a lot of my spare time working on a solution and come back the next morning and say, well, I did it, so that wasn't impossible. Now make it properly, of course, make it scalable, make it properly, not as a prototype any more, because that was more like prototyping stuff. But it helped a lot always to have this ability to talk technology, and also being able to demonstrate stuff.

The career clock

[00:12:53] Nathalie: I don't know about you, but because this is a second career, I'm really conscious of having this career clock that's ticking away. Do you find that as well? What are your motivators now?

[00:13:12] Sébastien: Yeah, I think you reach a point where you also have a kind of maturity, where it's becoming a little bit of a repetition of things to say, you know, you should consider your users, and so on. And I think we are at the stage where we need to move on a little bit, go to the next battle. It depends of course on the maturity of the company you work for, but there are so many things to consider, so many things to do. What about you — did you have this impression of having this time?

[00:13:58] Nathalie: Yeah. When I was younger I was conscious that sometimes you'd think, oh, I don't need to take that risk just now, or you could sit back and you've got time, you can just bide your time and wait a couple of years before you go for something. But now it's like, well, I've got to make every month, as it were, count, because this clock is ticking in my head really loudly. So I have to constantly push myself harder than maybe I would have when I was younger. I'm outside of my comfort zone quite a lot, and I've had to get used to that.

[00:14:38] And there's a lot of re-evaluating at different points, quite frequently re-evaluating to make sure: am I still learning, am I pushing myself, what could be my next goal, where could I go next? Just to try and — because I'm quite ambitious as well — so it's just trying to keep pushing things along. And I don't seem to have as much patience in that respect, career-wise and progression-wise, as I might have in my 20s, because I haven't got that benefit of time to just sit back and wait for it to happen. I've got to make it happen. It's quite interesting how much it does actually push you further than you even think you're capable of sometimes. It's an interesting one. It wasn't something I expected, that was for sure.

[00:15:31] Sébastien: Yeah, I think it's interesting, because this feeling of aging — actually changing technology and taking new challenges is maybe a solution to keep you young, at least in your head. You feel like you're always on the learning curve and not on the kind of old senior person telling a younger person what to do, which I really, really hate doing. So yeah, I think it's also a good way of staying young.

[00:16:09] Nathalie: Yeah, my children actually made an interesting comment about it as well, because I'm trying to get them to decide what they want to do, and they've kind of turned round and said, well, it doesn't matter, Mum, because you went and retrained and did something else, so if this isn't working we can go off and do something else later. Which I thought was a really nice way of looking at it. Even now, who knows, there might even be a career number three a bit further down the line.

Q&A

[00:16:36] Sébastien: That's right, that's super cool. I don't know if you would like — should we take some questions maybe, from the audience?

[00:16:48] Host: Yes, we have some questions. Hi all. This is a great conversation, so thank you to you both. You're talking about being brave and out of your comfort zone. I really love this format and hearing your candid opinions on your careers. So we have a few questions in here. Firstly, Sébastien, I'll direct this to you: if you could go back to one point in your career, what would you say to your younger self, and what point in your career would that be?

[00:17:32] Sébastien: Yeah, that's a tough one actually. I don't regret anything. I don't regret any changes. Maybe I should have made better choices, like not renting a place, if I had known that I stayed in a place for longer than — do something else. But I really enjoyed the fact of changing, of having different kinds of mini careers, and also in several countries. I lived in the UK, I lived in France, I lived in Germany, and now I live in Denmark. It's not simple. It makes also your family life, a work-life balance, a bit challenging sometimes. But I don't regret it. I don't think you should change things. You should really decide — what you've decided, you've decided, and just carry on. Nothing to change.

[00:18:34] Host: That's a really nice attitude. And Nathalie, I'll ask you the same thing. Would you have anything to change? I really liked your child's positive outlook on life, that they look up to you, because it is a huge decision to make a career move like you've done. But if you could go back, what point of time would you go back to yourself, and what would you say?

[00:18:58] Nathalie: I'd probably say don't worry about all the noes, because there's been quite a lot of rejection along the way. And I don't know, I've always managed to find another way around it. So just because one door shuts it doesn't mean you can't go and take a little bit of a detour and still get in another way. So not to let those noes get you down: it's just getting you closer to that one yes that you're going to get eventually.

[00:19:27] And I would go with the same feeling, that I don't regret anything, because all those experiences make me what I am now, and all those experiences I can use and look back on to guide wherever I go next or whatever decisions I make now. That experience helps me. So I don't have any regrets in that respect. But it's just that, don't worry, don't listen when people say no. If you really want to make something happen, then you can. It just might take a bit of hard work, but you'll get there.

[00:20:08] Host: Yeah, that makes sense. And Sébastien, what do you think is next for you in your career at LEGO? How do you think you'll progress the dev team in terms of integrating UX?

[00:20:23] Sébastien: I will definitely, in my area, make sure that the UX agenda — I've already organized a few product teams, and definitely one of the first recruitments we make when we start a new product is finding the right UX designer, specialist. What is actually happening — and I'll make maybe a little bit of publicity for the LEGO Group — right now is that we're opening a new office in Copenhagen, and I just moved last August to actually help staff this new office. So we're looking for a lot of engineers, a lot of user experience specialists, a lot of data specialists. I really encourage you to check our careers page, because there are plenty of fantastic opportunities.

[00:21:21] I think it will be a super nice adventure, because we will also start a new office in a new place, trying to create or to replicate the Danish, the headquarters culture, in a new environment. And it's super exciting.

[00:21:46] Host: Yeah. When we did speak, you mentioned that the important piece for you working in your career was the company that you worked for, and you felt LEGO did a lot for charity. So that is an interesting career point of view from you.

[00:22:01] Sébastien: Exactly, yeah. It's a super important aspect of my work, to wake up in the morning and not think that the company I work for is pointless. I really appreciate working here, and I'm sure a lot of people would, because there is something meaningful behind learning through play, giving access to play to millions of children around the world, and also having a kind of social responsibility above actually profits.

[00:22:36] Host: Great. And Nathalie, there's a question here which is something that was also front of mind when we spoke. It's around how do you play it to your advantage, your design career and your knowledge on design — how do you play it to your advantage within a developer area?

[00:22:58] Nathalie: I noticed quite early on that a lot of the developers around me might feel quite uncomfortable about the design realm. Because I can think with both hats on from that experience, then I can help explain things, and I can — as I've said in my talk — I became a mediator between designers and engineers, to help both parties see each other's sides and points of view.

[00:23:32] There are little things that do get missed along the way that I can pick up and then flag up with either party. If I can see something that might cause a problem further down the line, then I can raise that and have a discussion with someone early on so that we can try and mitigate any problems further on. I think being able to have that vision of both sides really, really helps. It's quite a niche spot to be in, but it's something that I've found has been appreciated by designers and developers alike. Both have said that it really does help to have that knowledge of both sides.

[00:24:16] Host: Yeah. And what are you doing in your career to jump from that junior developer into that senior developer role, and what's the next level for you after that?

[00:24:28] Nathalie: I think it is pushing myself even harder, I suppose, and getting more outside that comfort zone, taking on bigger challenges. So an example is where I've taken on initiatives that have brought people together from design, content and engineering to work on something. The example that we had was to look at accessibility checklists and how we could integrate and push it as far left in the process as possible, but that meant we needed to get everybody from all the different disciplines in the company together to talk. So I took that on.

[00:25:04] On the engineering side, the core engineering capabilities, I need to keep drilling down on that so that I can build up my own confidence to move to that senior role. So it's digging more into spikes, and giving myself permission to fail publicly with that as well within the teams. Because sometimes you have this block where you think everybody else knows more than you do, but realizing that if you're starting a new challenge, a new problem, you're not expected to know everything. So giving myself that space to say, okay, I need to look stuff up, I need to go and chat, and then being able to present that back to everyone and help steer direction.

[00:25:51] That's the kind of thing I'm taking on now. And of course public speaking as well helps, because if you can learn how to communicate back to everybody and explain concepts or the work that you've done and present that back, then that helps build your confidence, it makes sure of your knowledge, it helps spread that knowledge throughout the company. So I find that a really useful thing to do.

[00:26:14] Host: Yeah, I really did enjoy your presentation. I thought it was very clearly laid out, and you almost are easily able to translate it to somebody else from an outsider's organization, to know. That's really good. And the last question here would be around how do you keep yourself motivated for the future. So I'll take that one to you, Sébastien. You've had a lot of, I'd say, ups and downs and rollercoasters in your career. What drives you for that next step?

[00:26:49] Sébastien: Well, obviously, delivering something that excites, and having this product going live and getting fantastic feedback out of it, and knowing that there's been such a journey behind it that we had to go through: so much UX research and prototyping and the iteration and MVP, and going through this journey. So it will always be changing. Challenge is all super, super cool. You always get to this level of having no clue, to finding out amazing insights and experimenting. So as long as there will be this space to have this cycle of starting something new, thinking, what the hell can I do about it, I have no clue about it, and having this process of innovation and exploration and implementation, and hopefully at the end of the day pretty good feedback, I think I will stay motivated.

[00:27:58] One thing I didn't mention earlier is that also as part of managing UX I was working on developing a business design system for LEGO, and we were a little bit struggling to make product teams adopt this way of working. One thing that is fantastic being now on the engineering side is that I can actually force my engineering team, or ask them, to adopt this way of working. So it was also an enormous advantage of being on the engineering side today.

[00:28:36] Host: Yeah, look, really great. And Nathalie, just lastly, you mentioned before about the buzz of getting back into your new career, and after being so many years alone and working for yourself, and moving to London and that buzz of a new role, a new job, a new team. If you lose that, do you think you will move career, or do you think you will try and change within the career to keep that motivation?

[00:29:08] Nathalie: Yeah, I definitely want to keep on the path that I am. I do miss the startup buzz, because I found that's completely different from being in a much larger company like Zoopla. So it is a completely different setup. So maybe that might be a direction I'll move towards, to get back into that startup zone. But yeah, I just want to see how far I can go with this, having made the move so late. I just like the challenge, so I just want to see where this is going to end up. Who knows.

[00:29:48] Host: I think a lot of people are looking at that the same. I think it's a call-out to recruiters as well, because a lot of people see that career, as you said, 20 years doing this, and they almost dismiss somebody for being too — as you said, not fitting in a right kind of path. So I think it's an eye-opener for all. We are over time. I really appreciate this and just the candid conversation that you've both had. I will hand it back now to Snjezana[?] for the rest of the afternoon, and thank you all.