Bridging the Gap: Navigating Client-Agency Dynamics for Enhanced UX Outcomes

Panel

Bridging the Gap: Navigating Client-Agency Dynamics for Enhanced UX Outcomes

Continuous Research
UXDX EMEA 2024

This forum dives into the complex dynamics between product teams and external agencies. We'll explore strategies for when to engage with an agency, the challenges of aligning different company cultures, frameworks, and product processes, and how to foster a collaborative environment that benefits both sides. Attendees will gain insights into managing client-agency relationships effectively, ensuring clear communication, and achieving successful UX outcomes from both perspectives. This session is ideal for those client-side product stakeholders working with agencies and other third-party service vendors looking to enhance their collaborative efforts.

Radu Jitea

Radu Jitea, UX Strategist,Granite Digital

Ruchika Hassan

Ruchika Hassan, VP - Global Growth and Marketing ,Fluix

Mark Kelly

Mark Kelly, Director Experience Design & Research, MarTech, International,Novartis

Mary Doherty

Mary Doherty, Managing Director,Red Dog

Radu: Thank you so much for coming. We have an absolutely lovely panel today and what we're going to discuss is the client-agency dynamics and how they can enhance what companies actually care about. We don't have a lot of time and we want to dive in quite quickly, so I'll do a really short introduction and then we will jump in. Please think about questions as you go, add them on - we're going to try and leave some time at the end and answer any questions you might have.
What we have for today - we have Mark, so Mark is absolutely amazing, I know Mark for a while, no pressure. Mark works for Novartis, he is going to represent more on the client side experience. Then we have with us Mary from Red Dog, also the IDI president and she's going to represent the agency side. And then we have Ruchika - she's again on the marketing side of the client so she has a lot of experience there. We also know each other quite well, we work together for quite a while. And then I am Radu and what I do, I'm working for an agency. I'm going to try and bring that point of view and hopefully make this very interesting and useful for all of you.
Let's begin, shall we? The first thing I want to really emphasize here is that we're looking for what's our experience in that dynamic, in that relationship in terms of how do we engage with agencies, how do we engage with clients, what kind of things work, what kind of things we observe that might not work as well, and how can they have an impact on everything we do.
So what I'm really curious about is just in terms of the key challenges. If we can maybe start with Mark - what from your perspective do you think are the key challenges, especially when it comes to working with agencies and picking agencies?
Mark: There's lots I guess, but it's no different to any other part of a business. I think when you're on the client side, depending on where you work, there's always processes, cost, but really I think the most important thing is you're looking for a connection and an understanding and a partnership. But I would caveat that with it very much depends on where you're coming from. In my environment, work environment, I'm perhaps looking for scale and duration and stability - there are some of the things I really value. So you might be looking for that as a niche of what an agency brings, but that could be very different to another company.
Radu: And just going back to Mary, what do you think are the key challenges from our agency side perspective for client relationships? Just in engaging with clients, what do you think are kind of the things you've seen that maybe are a bit problematic or hard, they create friction?
Mary: I think fundamentally if there's a lack of openness and transparency from the get-go then it's really going to be a very turbulent ride. So we try to find people that we're on the same level with and feel they feel on the same level as us. And we'd be very upfront from the get-go of how we work and that it really has to be kind of an open forum. And it's not them and us - I mean everyone throws around words like collaboration and co-creation like snuff at a wake as we say over here, but that's all very well but at the end of the day I think it really is about honesty and openness and we have to all be on the same level. That's the most challenging thing - if that's not the case it's going to be trouble.
Radu: Absolutely. And then Ruchika from your side, what's kind of the main issue that you notice when trying to engage with agencies?
Ruchika: So in the last - I've spent a lot of time in agencies, I've spent about four or five years in agencies and about last 10 years on the client side and I kind of have seen both sides of it. When it comes to as a client, the biggest challenge I see is the agency understanding the real business challenges and the goals. So it's not just about the project goals or getting that project to the finish line but is that project going to deliver to the expectation of the client.
I've seen it over and over again and it's again, it goes back to Mary's point which is it's a mutual thing which is openness and transparency and so on, but if these things are not ironed out firstly and foundationally then you can't build that relationship. You might get to the end of the project but the chances are it's not going to be effective. So that's where that's what I've been seeing.
Radu: And one thing I might add as well is that sometimes what I found when working with clients is that by the time they get to an agency in most cases they probably already think they have a solution. So they jump to a solution or solutionize by the time they got to the agency, so the agency doesn't really have that scope to come in and say well maybe that's not what you need, maybe we can tweak that.
So in my view always at the beginning I'm trying to assess how committed are you to maybe something that you have already agreed on and can we change that even before engaging, which is always a challenge. It's not something easy, but that's kind of one of the things I recognize as a potential issue. Would you like to add anything to that?
Mark: I think also there's a lot of truth around that. Being on the client side, when I engage with an agency it's for a business purpose, it's a goal, but even I find it challenging sometimes internally to really understand what are we trying to achieve here. So as you say, there's always a starting point - we think this or we want that - but there's a process to unpack that and that really is again, to Mary's point, like that openness and engagement, putting the preconceived notions to one side and figuring that out together, or else you know you could be just moving boxes around the page and that doesn't really move the dial for the business typically. So it's really important I think.
Radu: Absolutely. Is there anything else we can think about maybe in terms of emphasizing that kind of beginning of that journey?
Mary: Well I mean I think a very robust briefing session is very, very important as well. Again that people are open but that's what you said - that they realize there is a process and that as an agency you have to explain how you work. So you can't just start at the middle, so what you said - you have to start at the beginning and so they have to be open to that.
So it kind of teases that out as well I suppose, where they're at, and you have to make them understand that that's great and we know you want it to be orange and we know you want it to be this or that but that mightn't be the way to land up. So a briefing session and a very structured one and well-designed I think as well starts things off on a very healthy basis.
Radu: And that's actually that's a nice segue into the point that we're going to tackle next, which is the kind of things that we know work well - solutions, strategies that we apply. And to resonate to that point, I think in the work that I do as a UX strategist, I recognize the value of a discovery workshop where we involve all stakeholders at the beginning and we start asking the tough questions and we ask about the business problem statement and the kind of things that are really the foundational blocks like you mentioned. We begin at the beginning and we understand what do we need to do next steps, how to plan accordingly and make sure we stay within restrictions, budgets, deadlines and so on.
So to that point is there anything else that you probably seen that maybe Mark you could tell us an agency has done that has worked really well with you guys?
Mark: The point is a lot of what I see agency works come in, it's excellent. Some of it's amazing. I think what helps them is understanding how your company works or who are the stakeholders, the influencers, the decision makers, and if you can provide that context, that really sets up the project for success.
So I think it's being cognizant of things like that. One anecdote very early on - I was having conversations and people influencing people don't really get everything about design because it's complicated. So simplifying it, being able to communicate in terms of your audience or who you're working with was really valuable and it kind of then becomes easier.
Radu: And Ruchika I'm going to come back to you - what do you think in terms of who should lead that conversation? Do you feel like it's more your responsibility to really be clear on your brief or do you feel like maybe the agency should be the one kind of asking you the tough questions?
Ruchika: That's a great question. It has to be mutual but the client has that responsibility and I'm saying that as a client because you cannot expect somebody else to create something for you - a product, a website, anything - without onboarding them clearly.
So expecting even - I don't think even a strategy session is enough, there has to be an onboarding process. I've worked - so I predominantly work in B2B technology area right now, and in this sector if you want to grow quickly and you're briefing something, you can't expect to see the results or what you have in your head from somebody else in no time or it should be just right.
So it's our responsibility to do that but also I always believe that the agencies have to challenge, they have to question. They can't just take brief for brief because strategy means different things to different people. What you would think strategically is right is different for me, and then it goes to third party who's not in the day-to-days with us.
So it's extremely important for both teams to have that, but it's the client's responsibility to have that onboarding process and if the client doesn't have that, the agency needs to ask for it and become a part of the system. And as we were just talking about, it's not about the project, it's not about the brief, it's not about what you're trying to build - it's about who you're trying to build for.
And a lot of times internally in businesses it takes years to get to the same point. So you could think that yes you've gotten everything but internally on the client end - again it's a big organization but most of the early stage, scale-up stage businesses they don't have it clearly. So it's definitely our responsibility to get to it and then to work with the agency and the agency to push us to get clearer information.
Radu: That's very interesting and I think Mary, to that point this is where us as agencies come in and we have to challenge, we have to push and that's a very good point. But to that point, how do we actually provide value to the innovation side of things? How can we challenge that point of view and deliver value at the same time? So I'm curious if you have any points there in terms of driving that value and innovation.
Mary: Well funny enough, I just did a briefing session this morning and there was a good bit of challenging from our end. The thing that you have to do I suppose, and I've learned this over the years, is you can't really wing it. So you have to do your homework - we as an agency have to do our homework. So you have to be political, strategic, creative, you have to be all those things in order to get all the right answers.
So today when we were challenging, we were kind of saying "look you've said this but what does that actually mean?" And then they start going "well to us it means..." Well it's not really about you to be fair, this is about your own audience. And therefore we have to - we start doing like stakeholder mapping with them then and get people to understand that we're not designing for them, we're designing for others.
And stakeholder mapping is very interesting because it opens up possibly a can of worms but a can of worms you want to open now and not later on. So even this morning we discovered that there's a stakeholder that basically owns this project that won't be involved till later on, so you kind of go "well that's a problem, I mean that's crazy."
So it's a good method - stakeholder mapping definitely - and challenging all their points and just saying "look if you don't mind, in our experience we think this." And they can take it or leave it, but the more you challenge, good people sit up a bit straighter and it becomes more of an interactive conversation I think.
Radu: Absolutely. Going back to you Mark, I'm actually curious from that perspective - have you had this situation where maybe when you were mapping your stakeholders you realize that you left somebody out? Was there a case where you discovered new stakeholders?
Mark: There's always more stakeholders and it's quite complex. I think that's where you know, us as designers, you trust the process, you know it delivers value. I think so activities like stakeholder mapping, they're always challenging to do and they take time and sometimes if an agency suggests something there might be a bit of push back, but that's where you really rely on, you know, for the better UX outcomes and the business back is like we need to do this.
They always pay dividends. So again, having something like your triple diamond or some simple framework where you're able to describe look, this is problem discovery, it contains these activities, we do them because of X - then that really helps people understand the value and why we do these things. And the reality is stakeholders, whenever you reach out and involve them, as long as they understand why they're being involved, there's never any kickback or whatever.
Radu: And I always find from the agency side if we can win the stakeholders on your side quickly by just bringing them along for the journey and not just showing stuff that is final or delivered, just ask for opinions and questions and then guide the conversation, I find that helps gaining that kind of support that you need at the business level.
So and I'm actually curious, I'm going to come back to you Ruchika - so we mentioned push back, right? So as an agency your role is to really challenge. I'm curious if we could put a limit to that challenge - is there such a thing, is there pushing too far? Can you think of anything that might be interesting there?
Ruchika: Depends on the personalities for sure, it depends on the relationships you have. You definitely don't want to push too hard, that's for sure - nobody's saying that. But if something is not clear you can't take a partly cooked meal.
So you need to have those things, and also to understand where is this brief coming from, where is the challenge coming from. You know often we talk about when we talk about client agency relationships, we talk about communication and communication is a must and communication is important, but then there's also two parts of communication - there's under-communication then there's over-communication as well.
You don't want to be overly sharing until as a client that everything is ready, but once you are sharing you need to be sure that there's some sort of framework that you're applying to it. I've seen over-communication in a lot of businesses as well and that's where the goal posts keep changing, the project brief keeps changing and that creates further nuisance especially when it comes to branding and so on.
Today I woke up and I thought that this is how it should be as a marketing manager - let's say maybe that's too much of it. So there has to be some framework but at the same time it needs to be a mutually respectful relationship where you're both able to speak up.
When I used to work in agencies, I felt that we used to take briefs and we used to address - I don't want to say where I worked but - a lot of times you just have to deliver and that's when you realize that you're off. Now when I'm working with agencies, I always push them to ask me the questions and I don't a lot of time get enough questions. I get reports at the end of it, I get to see what it is and the feedback is taken for its value.
So there has to be some work done in terms of when I say pushing the part, it's understanding it's a five-why process - why are we saying this, why are we asking for it, and if you get that feedback - why? So it's the curiosity that you're going to build around your briefing process initially that's going to make the life easier for both parties.
Radu: And I like what you mentioned there just even coming back to feedback. So Mary, what do you think about feedback loops? Is there anything that we need to think specifically when we engage with clients and creating that safety and that feedback that we absolutely need to collect to do a good job?
Mary: Are you talking about it at the outset or during?
Radu: Could be both. So I think is there any difference between the beginning and the middle of a project in terms of feedback loop?
Mary: Well there's just different types of feedback. So if it's feedback on something that you've presented as a possible solution, I think that it's vital that it's cohesive, intelligent, articulate, makes sense, and it's not just personality driven.
So it has to have - it all has to go back to the brief, so it has to make commercial sense for them and you. So that's why we have the from with this open and transparent kind of relationship the whole way through so you're not just getting this jumbled email or ten emails or people not even prepared to sit down and talk to you directly about something - that's never going to work.
So I think feedback has to be managed really carefully by a good account manager for sure, or whoever that person would be in your business, to make sure that we totally get it and that we're happy that that feedback will work. So again, it's just the kind of back and forth, it's just that kind of mutual respect. If you think they're asking for something that's absolutely ridiculous or going to change the scope, you just have to be honest about it.
Radu: Mark, we're going to move on to you. I'm curious - feedback loops, do you have anything specific in mind, something that works for you really well?
Mark: Yeah, I think under the umbrella of collaboration and communication, like much like internal teams, you have to have regular check-ins and milestones. But I think also feedback doesn't- feedback should be about everything that happens. Like when we're doing a workshop, like how was that, and then you get feedback from the people who participated. That's really important because you're always trying to incrementally improve and show the best at every point.
When an agency is engaging with a client, I take Mary's point as well - it has to be constructive. This comes back to getting the best out of client-agency relationship - it's a relationship of sorts and you're trying to keep that on the right level I suppose.
Radu: I found really what works in some cases when the stakeholder group might be quite big, if we collect anonymous feedback as opposed to group feedback, seems to work quite well because it creates maybe a sense of psychological safety. It kind of emphasizes that a bit more and I found somehow to some extent, maybe to a point that's actually not as tangible, but I feel like the feedback packs a bit more punch and it's more relevant somehow. So that's kind of a trick I apply is just make sure that I collect some kind of anonymous feedback at some points, maybe not throughout. So I found that works really well.
Okay, so I just want to move on to kind of the last point that we have today. Just in terms of - Ruchika, we're going to start with you - do you have any advice in terms of you as a client picking an agency? Do you have a bit of advice for agencies in terms of what they should do to stand out, to make sure they resonate with you and what you need?
Ruchika: Absolutely. I think the first thing - if I'm looking for an agency, I look at their experience obviously if it's directly related to my area. So B2B SaaS, I will be definitely looking around that area. I always look for as well for agencies that I work with - we create clear frameworks in terms of their scoring system because design is such a subjective thing, and a lot of times a lot of the feedback that comes could be personal - "this is what I believe, this doesn't look right on the website."
So giving that rationale around your thinking upfront, not just the product in as many details that connects back not just to the project but to business outcome. So for example if you're creating a website, it's not just about the website, it is about who is seeing this website and why is this going to be the right thing.
So I would frontload that part so that I am understanding and learning before we go in. And again it's a system - obviously everybody does that but I don't think it connects the bottom line. So if you don't understand the impact of it in a revenue, a numeric value, the chances are you leave it open for subjectivity and that's where things start to trouble where people are more about "I don't think this color is nice" or "this feature should be on the website."
It's having that confidence to push back and say based on this research, this is what it can deliver and standing both on those grounds. So that's one thing I believe really drives confidence in both clients. And again, clients are employees of organization so the only reason they're probably pushing back as well is the pressure they're under and they have to sign that off and it's their neck on the line. So it's understanding those mutual difficulties and helping them, giving them that confidence to push your product further.
Radu: Right, so acknowledging up front and driving confidence. Mark, from your perspective is there anything else an agency or a partner might be willing to look at maybe from your perspective to earn some extra points?
Mark: I think really it's grit. Do they really - you kind of pick it up when you're talking about potential projects or you're talking about - you pick up there's an interest there. And often the opening gambit could be about something but it's when the conversation goes wider and you really get a feel for okay, this is what this agency is about.
So really think you're looking for - have they done their homework? Do they really understand what we're looking for? Are they asking questions? It's very simple things but really important things that just come across. And then I think really at the end of the day, you're looking for someone who's as passionate and believes in UX and will stand up to get them into the product or the solution or whatever it is.
Radu: What I might add to that is kind of the same as Ruchika - I've worked on both sides, both in-house client and agency, and one thing I realized is that sometimes within a company you might have different points that just linger and keep resurfacing but they're not really being heard. And then you bring an agency, an expert in the field, they're basically just finding that point and rehashing it in a more creative way and somehow it captures the attention, and stakeholders will love that even though that has been there the whole time.
So I think even from my advice to a client will be look for somebody that recognizes that and maybe can help you drive points that you already know that could be improved or fixed within the company. So I would say that's a conversation we're having and then just emphasizing that.
So on that point, I want to thank you so much, this has been amazing, really good insights. So just big round of applause to our panelists.
[Q&A Session]
Radu: So now we're going to move on to just some questions. I'm going to try, I'm going to pick it from the top there. The first one we have is: how do you best navigate engagement between internal design team and external agency?
Mark, do you want to pick that one?
Mark: Yeah, it's onboarding. And again, I think on the client side what investments are there that makes that really easy - opening up. In my experience that's a normal thing, like it's expected. So we have processes and ways of working that support that. And generally it's positive - everyone wants more design support. So I think it's a win-win, so there's generally not a lot of negativity there.
Radu: Thank you. Let's pick the next one. When things go wrong, as an agency how do you handle when the client gets transactional? And I think there's a bit more to that, or maybe there isn't. As an agency how do you handle when the client gets transactional?
Well I think there's a few ways you can interpret that. Sometimes you're looking as a client, you might be looking for a partner but sometimes you might be looking for a vendor. And if the agency feels like a vendor, they're probably not going to give you their very best because it's transactional. You have to as a client, you have to get your agency excited I feel about the project. You can't just push the brief and expect amazing results.
Mary, do you want to add something there maybe? Is there anything else?
Mary: Yeah, I think that's probably hopefully thankfully starting to kind of peter out in general. I think that's the way it would have been a lot of the time but I think everyone's just got more educated and grown up about it. And that's what we're saying about everybody being on the same level. There's still a few of them about but don't think they're getting great work done. So I think it's about the mutual respect.
But about how to express disappointment as a client - that never happens! Ruchika, do you want to take that one?
Ruchika: I'm joking! I don't think it's about disappointment. It comes back to communication - if you haven't had a good setup, a good onboarding, clear KPIs, you didn't set up your milestones, it's going to be an awkward conversation at the end of the day.
And there's no disappointment, it's more about did you stick to the brief, did you go outside, is there something I didn't know? I think disappointment in general usually happens when something completely off the chart is delivered versus what I thought, and that's where all the initial points which is - what was the brief, what was the setup, did you ask me the right questions up front? And if you didn't ask me, I just assumed that you got everything.
So I think those are the gaps that will cause disappointment as an emotion, but it's mainly avoiding that part where you're not on the same path. It could be different solutions, but it's not completely something that wasn't even expected out of it.
So that would be probably very awkward - all the micro adjustments that you need to make along the way to make sure the milestones, the conversations which Mark was talking about. So if you have that brief, how are you, what are the check-ins, how are you going about those kind of things?
And it should never be in any scenario, no matter how great the brief is, that here's your onboarding or brief and then that's your result. There has to be a path that's created so that by the time there is some sort of result, you're maybe 80%, 70% aligned but you know there's room for improvement, not completely off track.
Radu: Let's see, what would a well-structured briefing session look like? I think this is probably on both sides. Mary, would you want to add anything to that - what's a well-structured briefing session from your side?
Mary: God, there's so many components. First of all, who's going to be around the table? Is everybody going to feel free enough to speak? So no CEOs allowed usually as the rule! Then we design it very detailed before we actually have the session and we make sure that the client signs that off.
So the agenda for the session - with us because we work on brand, it's probably quite different to what most of you guys do, but I suppose what we want to get onto is brand values, brand purpose, brand personality. So these are kind of things that we have loads of exercises built around which in a way are actually kind of playful but really telling, and kind of warm people up a bit at the beginning.
So we do all that strategy, brand strategy first and then we move into creative. So the session basically - we're trying to find out how, what their dial is compared to ours. You know, clients all say "we're going to be really courageous, we're going to be very brave" but everybody's version of brave and courageous is very different.
So we have to make sure we work out exactly where on the dial they are so we go off to do it. There's no disappointments then and there's no big surprises either, which is kind of I suppose the negative bit of that - like everyone really knows what to expect in some shape or form. So yeah, just to make sure that you come out with what you need and that's the structure I would follow.
Radu: Perfect. Well I think that's it for us. Thank you so much again, absolutely brilliant insights. Thank you for coming today, a big round of applause.