Q&A With Amanda Appel de Castro

Amanda Appel de Castro at UXDX Community: LatAm. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm76fVVDGhI

Readable transcript: edited from the recording's captions for readability (fillers and false starts removed, punctuation and section headings added). Wording is the speaker's own. Timestamps are positions in the video. Names marked [?] could not be verified against the audio.

Where Via is on its transformation journey

[00:00:00] Rory: Thank you for your time, and next up we have Amanda Appel. Welcome, Amanda.

[00:00:09] Amanda: Hello, Rory, it's a pleasure to be here.

[00:00:13] Rory: Excellent, and again, just another kind of fantastic talk. Really enjoyed your transformation journey, which we were just talking about as well. It's nice when talks segue into each other. My first question is, where would you describe yourself on your transformation journey?

[00:00:37] Amanda: As I mentioned in my session, I believe that we have conquered some things, but we are a bit far away from being a really product-led organization. And it was really nice to watch Daphne's session, because I believe that we are trying to do exactly the same thing, in a really large enterprise, and we are struggling with similar challenges. It's been really nice to see how they are trying to approach that, and to do like a human-centric company.

The biggest challenges

[00:01:26] Rory: Excellent. So can you talk about the challenges that you've faced? What are the biggest issues that you've had on your transformation journey?

[00:01:38] Amanda: I believe that the biggest challenge was that I was shifting jobs in the middle of the pandemic. And we were starting a digital transformation, and the whole company also started to learn how to work in this new environment. And as I mentioned, I believe that the first step in a digital transformation is trying to understand the environment of the company and also the people that you are working with. So it was an extra challenge to do that online and virtually in that moment. So I believe this was an extra challenge for me. And I tried to create connections with the stakeholders and try to understand the cultural environment of the company. So it was, I believe, a hard time.

[00:02:45] Rory: Yeah, doing anything new during the pandemic has been a challenge.

Shifting the mindset of people who prefer the old ways

[00:02:53] Rory: You started off by saying transformation is a mindset change. So how have you managed... From my personal experience, I've met people who don't believe that new ways of working are better. They believe that the old ways of working are the best ways of working. So when you encounter those people, how do you start trying to transition that mindset?

[00:03:24] Amanda: Yes, it's an excellent question, and it's also a really hard challenge. I believe that what you always need to do is start to conquer small battles, like proving that this new way of working could create more value for your customers and for your company. And I believe that you need to start small. So you could choose a small feature, a small project, to prove that doing it in a different way you could have better outcomes.

[00:04:07] Rory: And how did you personally get that? I'll give you an example of a company I was working in. I found it very difficult to get buy-in to do it even on the small project, to show that it could work, and it took many months of negotiations, because everybody was afraid that it'll all blow up and then they'll have to pick up the pieces. So how did you get buy-in even just to do your small test and experiment?

[00:04:39] Amanda: I always try to get the buy-in first. For example, I was passing through the same situation as you, and what I did, I proved myself as a competent leader, delivering what was asked about, in the shortest time possible. And then it started to show, and to share different ideas to do the project and the initiative. So it was hard, and sometimes you are going to win and sometimes you are going to lose, and sometimes it is going to take a lot of months, as you said. But I believe that once you get your first chance, you need to prove that you are going to create more value, and you need to prove that things work in this new way of doing.

Connecting small changes to the big picture

[00:05:43] Rory: Excellent. I love that approach. The next question I have is one that I've encountered, because I've done that approach of starting small, and then the next pushback I get is, oh, but they're just small changes. How do you manage communicating the big picture of what you're trying to achieve, but also making sure that you're starting small, because you can't do a whole transformation everywhere at once? So how do you get that big-picture sharing with the small-picture changes?

[00:06:19] Amanda: Yes, I believe that one of the most important things, and Daphne said before, and I also agree with her, is that you have to have the C-level, the board, buy in with you and understand the importance of doing this digital transformation. Because it can't be just one person wanting to do it and wanting to change. You need to have the whole environment, all the staff and other stakeholders, trying to do that change with you. And I believe that if you have those partners, and if you gather allies from the company, maybe it's going to be easier. And of course you are going to have the product vision and the product strategy, but you need to try to implement that step by step, and try to take those opportunities to do different, and then incrementing with others.

Influencing when you don't have the relationships

[00:07:30] Rory: Great. One question that I often receive from audience members is, it's great, okay, we need to get the C-level buy-in and things like that, well, I'm just an engineer, or I'm just a designer, or I'm just somebody, so how am I supposed to influence at that level? What advice would you give somebody who doesn't have that relationship, on how they can try to influence or get buy-in?

[00:07:59] Amanda: I believe that everyone should try to change the process and try to implement new ways of thinking, of doing, in every field, not just in a digital transformation in a company. So I believe that you need to gather allies and try to convince and negotiate with the people that you work with, trying to show that you are going to achieve the goals of the company, that you are going to achieve better and faster and with more quality, and really deliver what is expected from the customers.

[00:08:45] Rory: Excellent. So what parting advice would you give people who are starting on their own transformation journeys?

[00:08:54] Amanda: I would say, of course you are going to use a framework, but don't try to implement all the ways you are reading in books and watching in other videos. Try to understand exactly what your company needs and what are the challenges that you are going to have in the company that you work in.

[00:09:22] Rory: Brilliant. That's great advice, and I think we're out of time, so thank you very much, Amanda.