The Adaptability Test: How to Survive and Thrive

Nishtha Dalal, Avantika Gomes, Kathy Park, at UXDX USA. Video: https://youtu.be/fMIeYhjVCGo

Readable transcript: edited from the recording's captions for readability (fillers and false starts removed, punctuation and section headings added). Wording is the speaker's own. Timestamps are positions in the video. Names marked [?] could not be verified against the audio.

What skills are essential to thrive in a changing tech environment

[00:00:02] Host: Hello everyone, thank you all for joining us today. I know it's been such a long day, but I know you won't regret it. Adaptability is such a key in today's changing environment, and today we're just going to have a conversation with our panelists to talk and hear their opinions about how they can make adaptability a key ingredient to a successful workplace. So give a warm welcome to our panelists.

[00:00:34] Host: Before I begin, I will obviously be asking the questions, but please hold any questions to the end and we will definitely save time for that as well. We'll first start with a question around the skills. What skills are essential for professionals in design or product roles to thrive in a rapidly changing tech environment? We can just go down the line, starting with Michelle.

[00:01:00] Michelle: Awesome. For me, the things I like to think a lot about, especially when things quickly change or you have to make pivots in your roadmaps or in the priorities: communication is essential. It's really about trying to empathize and understand who your stakeholders are, who your team is. You have engineers, you have designers, you have folks in sales and CX folks across the business who really have their own priorities and objectives. When things need to change and you need to adapt, it's really about figuring out how do you speak to them in their language, and I think that that's really critical, a skill you really need to understand.

[00:01:40] Michelle: And second, sometimes we get to a point where things are moving so fast and we're talking over Slack, maybe over email, maybe in person, over Zoom, and we forget to write things down. So I really think the other critical thing is documentation. It's really knowing how to be succinct, document, and then share that back out with all the stakeholders to ensure alignment.

[00:02:01] Nishtha: I totally agree. I think it's so easy, when a pivot or a big change comes into your team, whether it is from learning from an experiment and it didn't quite go as planned, or changing the industry, it's so easy to start operating from a place of fear, of like, oh my God, I did all of this, I have to throw it away and start over. It sounds corny to be like, let's look at it as an opportunity, but honestly I think so many times when change management has to be dealt with, it's because there is a lot of fear going around. What does this mean for the team, what does it mean for the product? In this economy, if your team is pivoting, you're probably worried about 15 other things other than the product.

[00:02:40] Nishtha: But I think communication, everything from leadership, from your managers asking the tough questions of what does this actually mean, so you can reset and approach it as a new problem and opportunity rather than operating from a place of fear, is something that's been really important, especially at Shopify. We went through a lot of change, both in product and what we were working on on the developer platform strategy, but also from layoffs, and it starts to feel related even though it may not necessarily be. So just talking to your team about it and coming up with the plan on how to approach it is really important.

[00:03:19] Avantika: I definitely would echo a lot of what's been said already. One thing I'll add is also just staying close to the business. We've definitely seen a shift in the last few months where tech companies are thinking less about hypergrowth at all costs but now starting to think more about profitability. In the past, I know myself, designers, product managers have often not stayed as close to the business model, felt like thinking through revenue trends is more of the finance team's job or the sales team's job, but I think it's all of our jobs now. The more that we can stay close to that, the more that we don't let your eyes glaze over when your CFO's in all hands talking about the trends, try to understand how the business is doing and think about ways that all of us can help optimize processes, make our teams more efficient, the better off we're going to be.

[00:04:03] Avantika: The other thing I'll say is that so much change is happening in the way we're working, but also in our products themselves. There's a lot of new technologies that we're hearing about that could fundamentally transform designer workflows in the creative industry, and I think it's really important for designers to embrace that, really try out these new tools. I can't tell you how many designers I've talked to who are really afraid of things like generative AI and don't want to really mess around with it. But I think the more that you can tinker around with these tools, understand how you can apply them to your businesses, understand how other businesses have used it, understand the limitations of the new technologies, I think those skills are really important to be adaptable as well.

[00:04:42] Michelle: I'll add one more thing, just to piggyback off of the fear comment. When things are changing, I think back to Matt's talk around the amygdala growing and that fear response. How do you align your teams together and focus back on treating each other like humans? Sometimes we can get so wrapped up in the fast-paced nature of things and fixing the problem that we forget that one of the core things we need to remember as leaders, as product people, as designers, is that we are all humans and that we all should support each other as that. And then how to use storytelling to really inspire your teams to come together, and that really can inspire creative problem solving.

Future-proofing your skills

[00:05:27] Host: So we talked about the skills that are essential, but how do folks future proof their skills and roles to keep up with the change that's constantly happening? Let's start with Nishtha.

[00:05:38] Nishtha: Of course. I think Avantika kind of already hinted at it, but it's impossible to sit on a tech team today and not talk about AI, not talk about is AI going to take my job, and again operating from a place of fear but also really not knowing where it's headed, because it's just moving so fast. Shopify actually was one of the companies that had been at the forefront of adopting AI as a copilot in our daily workflows. We had, and I am no longer at Shopify, one of the first corporate licenses of OpenAI to be able to write emails. The CEO encouraged us to adapt and change job descriptions from leaders to say what does content design look like in five years, what does product design look like in five years with AI as a copilot.

[00:06:29] Nishtha: I think spending time upskilling yourself to look at it as, honestly, how many of us really enjoy production design of pixel pushing five different variations of error states? AI's here to fix that. We should welcome it, no one likes that. How many content designers truly enjoy finding five different ways of writing "forgot your password," "forgot password," "I don't remember my password," "remind me of my password"? These are soft problems. We don't become better content or product designers or product managers by writing filler language in product briefs.

[00:07:09] Nishtha: I think embracing it from that standpoint, going and asking ChatGPT, and I've done this, trust me, I've done it so many times where I'm like, write me a product brief for this, just to see what comes out, and honestly it's great. It saves you so much time, and now you can spend the time talking to your team, getting alignment, instead of just belaboring and hoping Google Docs, like tab, it'll predict the next word. This thing's just going to give it to you and you can edit it. That's the power of it. I feel a lot of people will think, well, the AI told me to do this, and that's not what's happening. You're going to take it, you're going to edit it, you're going to make it your own. It's a copilot. It's like now we all have assistants. It's honestly great.

[00:07:50] Avantika: I think we can also balance that. It definitely does feel like so much is changing in the industry, but there are some things that are staying the same, and I think honing those skills can really help future proof the jobs. Michelle touched on this a little bit, but creative problem solving, that's not going away. The pixels might move, the interfaces might look different, but there are still core workflow problems we're going to have to solve. Understanding user problems, exploring the solution space, design thinking, creative thinking, I think those are the skills that are much harder to replace by automation and AI, and so continuing to hone those skills feels really important.

[00:08:27] Avantika: The other thing I'll say, maybe this is a skill, but I'd say also just keeping your networks active, both within the company and outside the company. I was reading some research that said since the pandemic hit, people's interactions with their close networks has increased a lot but distant networks have shrunk a lot. In other words, people are working much, much more in silos, and I don't think that does us any good, especially when we're in a climate where layoffs are happening. The more embedded you are within an organization, the more people have visibility on your work, I think the safer you're going to be. So definitely don't neglect that part of the job. It's tempting to just work with your immediate team, but make sure that you carve out some time to talk to other folks at the company and attend events like this where you can network and meet other folks.

[00:09:12] Michelle: I'll add a little bit to what was said here. Understanding and getting to know your user is not going to go away. Yes, you can put the insights that you generate, the insights that you get from your conversations with your users, into GPT, and I do that all the time actually, say synthesize and pull out the trends or find the differences. But that's just one level. It's what you do with those insights next that I think really differentiates and really future proofs your individual role.

[00:09:44] Michelle: I think we talked about this, someone said this on stage: how do you break down problems into smaller components and chunks to de-risk innovation? Because that's also not something that, maybe over time GPT could do that, but it's really about thinking about how do you incrementally learn but not lose sight of the bigger picture. I think if you're able to do that, you're able to showcase effectiveness, you're able to showcase impact, then you also get buy-in from your leaders and they see that you're really able to put all the components together, and that I think is really, really critical.

Designing a product to be adaptable

[00:10:19] Host: So with adaptability, we touched on the way to adapt to working changes, but adaptability really applies to everything in the workspace. So focusing in more now on product changes, the next question is, the product is really never done. How can you design a product to be adaptable? And Avantika, we'll start with you.

[00:10:43] Avantika: It's funny you say that. Our chief product officer at Figma, Yuhki, talks a lot about this. He has blog posts about how design is always work in progress, things are always changing. I think if you wait for that perfect moment to review designs or share it with your engineering team, that's too late. You have to be reviewing things early, at a more predictable cadence. But I definitely think it's worth the effort to think through how you can build adaptable products in this environment.

[00:11:07] Avantika: Maybe I can use an example. I think some of you are familiar with FigJam, Figma's online whiteboarding tool. Pretty early on we realized that people were using FigJam for brainstorms and they really needed the ability to be able to cluster their ideas into themes, and so we were excited to launch a feature called sections, which allows you to do this pretty easily, and you can change the color of these sections and name them. It was really tempting to just think short term, let's just get this out, let's get this to the users as fast as possible, but we did spend some cycles up front thinking through, what are some other use cases for this, how could we build this in a more scalable way? And while we didn't spend engineering cycles on it, even just designing the product to be more adaptable really helped us, because after we launched it for FigJam we almost immediately started hearing feedback from designers that they wanted it in Figma design, and they wanted to be able to group their frames or use it to group prototype flows. We were able to then launch much more quickly to bring this over to Figma design, because we had already built the primitive with adaptability in mind so that we could easily bring it over.

[00:12:11] Avantika: Some lessons that I take away from this: like I was saying, talk to your engineering teams early. A lot has been said about this at this conference already, so I won't belabor the point even more, but the earlier you can bring your engineering teams into the conversations, the faster they're going to be able to spot some of these things, think about how they can build it in a more reusable way.

[00:12:29] Avantika: The second thing I will say is just leaning into design systems as almost a shared language between designers and developers. We're seeing this a lot where concepts from code are coming into the world of design. There was this great talk earlier today where we were talking about design tokens, and if you can start to use reusable components, things like tokens in your design, and the design artifact comes closer and closer to the artifact in code, it's so much faster to build things, it's so much faster to iterate, it's so much faster to adapt. Like was said earlier, you can easily click a button and take a look at a product in dark mode versus light mode, and that's really powerful to build products and adapt to things. So definitely some things to take away there.

[00:13:11] Nishtha: Basically everything you said about adapting your product. Again, going back to what AI can and can't do, the only way you'll know your product needs adapting is if you talk to your users. You can't make GPT talk to your users. It's just being really, really close to who's using your product, how it's being used. Not to plug FullStory, I do not work there, but just being really hyper close to how your product is being used is so important.

[00:13:37] Nishtha: I can think of a few examples where you think your product is being used a certain way just because you talk about it internally, of like, yes, we launched this feature. An example of this is when I was at OkCupid. We have a bunch of questions and people use questions to find compatibility. That's what we thought when we tried to launch in India. OkCupid already had a presence in India, but what we realized is people were using those questions to actually filter out cultural differences, so their matches would be more accepted by their family if it were to go somewhere. You can't find that out without talking to people.

[00:14:15] Nishtha: Another example is I was at Meetup in 2020 when the pandemic hit, and if anything needed to adapt at that point it was an events platform, to go online. Again, it just goes back to, the best way to make your product adaptable is, like everything you said about talking to your engineers, but also really just talking to your users to see where there are needs, how this product is actually being used versus how you want it to be used, because they're not always the same.

[00:14:44] Michelle: I won't add, I think the reusable components with your design system to really be able to ship features fast and test them fast. At Hinge, on our app, we had prompts, text prompts. We pivoted those to be video and then voice, and all these were these different manifestations but it was a similar kind of form factor. The other thing that hasn't been covered here is leaning into data in your use cases. Who are your customers and how might they change over time?

[00:15:12] Michelle: At Netflix we did a really interesting thing where we basically took box art, trailers and the kind of synopsis and metadata, and we adapted those based off of who a user was over time and the profiles we could essentially create from them. So we showed them more effective box art, more effective titling, to actually make them more excited about potentially watching that show or not watching it, because you wanted to get them something that was going to be really great for them. So you can adapt your product in a variety of different ways, even at the content level.

Managing the feelings when product strategy shifts

[00:15:43] Host: Totally. We definitely talked about adapting to the product itself, but how do you manage the feelings when the product strategy shifts? Michelle, if you want to start.

[00:15:58] Michelle: Oh yeah, throwing that one at me. Sometimes strategy has got to change. Sometimes you have new information. Sometimes you have to reduce your workforce. Sometimes you run a test and it's just, wow, this thing's really working, oh my goodness, we did not expect that. I think one of the things I'll always go back to is, it's really about storytelling. It's about bringing your teams along for the journey. We talked about this earlier in the morning with Tim, about bringing all of your team members in at every step of the way.

[00:16:33] Michelle: This is really important, because it's happened to us actually. At Hinge we were launching this new feature, really trying to figure out how to help people express themselves more effectively. We shipped out this voice product, didn't realize that it was actually going to be a really effective product, and it really impacted our entire product strategy and roadmap, because we immediately had to pivot to adapt to the virality that we were experiencing, and then really also change the way that we're thinking about all of our future product launches. So I think it's really important again just to storytell and let people really understand why. Because sometimes you're moving so fast, things change, and that might happen at the top level, it might happen at mid-level, and everybody else who was actually working on the features, working on the plans, working on the projects, don't have the context. So be as transparent as possible and share as much context so people know why things are changing.

[00:17:26] Avantika: I think this was implied in your story, Michelle, but I think the other thing we should keep in mind is that probably all of us in this room create our product roadmaps for three month intervals or six month intervals, but we have to acknowledge that user needs, technology, it's changing a lot faster than that. So I think we have to be checking in on these roadmaps every month if not sooner, to see what are we learning from our users, how are our products doing, is there anything new that challenges the things that we've already committed to on our roadmaps, and just hold on a little bit less tightly to the things we've already committed to and just be okay with some of that change.

[00:18:00] Avantika: I was working as a PM on our boards product when I was at Pinterest when the pandemic hit, and overnight we saw this surge in people creating boards for bread making and sprucing up their home offices. We could have stuck to our roadmap for the next six months, but we almost instantly shifted resources and started investing in more tools to help people take action on those ideas. And we were able to respond so much faster just because we were open to change and we were talking about what we're seeing in the data and with usage as well. So I think that was implied in Michelle's story too, just make sure that you're checking in and not just staying locked into any sort of fixed roadmap.

[00:18:39] Nishtha: The only thing I'll add is it doesn't feel so much like a change when you've been part of the journey that leads to the change. That's just talking to your team, especially if you're a people manager, just hyper transparency where you can. Most recently at Shopify I was working on the developer platform, and the strategy shifted from this developer platform that's very UI heavy, and we had a CLI offering, the strategy shifted to everything CLI. Now you can imagine the anxiety a design team will feel, where it's like, well, there's no UI for me to design, what am I going to do? But just bringing them along the journey of, here's what actually your role is going to look like, it's not that we don't need you, everything needs UX, everything needs design. The difference between something being thrown down at you versus you being brought along the journey is just way different. So if you can, just bring people along and it won't feel like such a big change.

Adapting to downsizing, reorgs and a new boss

[00:19:36] Host: So along with a product strategy, change can also mean things that are more tangible, like team downsizing or a new boss is hired. So how can people be adaptable to those larger changes that are very, very apparent? Avantika, you want to start?

[00:19:57] Avantika: Sure. I think the first thing we just have to acknowledge is that these types of changes are hard. Whenever these changes happen, whether it's downsizing, restructuring, layoffs, people have so many feelings. They feel a loss of certainty, they feel a loss of agency, they feel a lack of control. So for all of us to just make space to process that, but then also to make space for our teams. I've seen a lot of leaders who try to paint a rosy picture and put a positive spin on these changes, but I think oftentimes what teams appreciate is just authenticity and vulnerability and just being transparent about why you're doing what you're doing, and acknowledging that it's a hard situation for everyone and we're all dealing with it in our own ways. So that's one.

[00:20:39] Avantika: The other thing I will say is that as hard as these shifts can be, oftentimes those are when the biggest opportunities are created. Once you've had time to sort of process the change, try to look around you at the company and see, have new roles opened up, are there new people with influence in the company that maybe you should be talking to, are there new ways that you can drive efficiency in this new team, are there new skills that you can pick up if you're starting to wear multiple hats? Lots of opportunities crop up, so I think that's something to keep in mind as well, because the times of biggest changes are also the times of biggest opportunity.

[00:21:14] Nishtha: I would definitely agree. Just take time. Whether it's a reorg, whether it's a layoff, whether someone or a few people have just left the team on their own accord, it just is so important for leaders to be able to say, take the day off, take time off, let's get in a Google Meet or whatever and just talk, without it being, like you said, rosy messaging of, we are going through this exciting time that requires us to have fewer people. Just, how are you feeling? How do you feel? I think those are the questions that are easy to forget to ask. Or, do you need time off? A lot of the times people just want to be in a room and not talk about it, which is very hard to do in a remote environment, because when something like this happens in real life, when we used to all be in offices, you'd go to the bar down the street and that would be you're not talking and just being together, and just recreating some semblance of that is so important.

[00:22:08] Nishtha: The other thing I will say is it's so hard to balance finding opportunities and saying no and preserving yourself. It's really everyone's personal call. I often have had these conversations with directs of, here's an opportunity, if you don't want to take it, that is okay. A lot of the times there are some personalities always on teams that will take the burden of short staffing, take the burden of, we have a skill gap, let me just do it. It's great if they're recognized, but the worst outcome you'll have is your highest performers are burning out because they're just filling in gaps without you realizing it or without it coming up to you. So just take time to make sure, if someone is stepping up to that opportunity, that it's aligned with their career goals, it's aligned with what the company actually needs. Like, is this something we even need, or is this person, or even yourself, ask yourself, ask your manager: we don't have a content designer, do we need this or should I not take this on? Because it's an explicit conversation to have.

[00:23:15] Michelle: Maybe I'll touch on a different angle, because I think we've talked a lot about what you do when you downsize or have layoffs. One of the things that I've experienced a couple of times is when you actually have to hire in somebody above people who are reporting to you. That's a really hard thing, because it kind of means that you don't have that necessary skill on your team today, you need to bring it in. What that's saying to your team is, I don't have the skill in my team today so I need to bring it in. It's not necessarily that you don't believe that the team has those skill sets or capabilities, but it's that you just need some level of experience or exposure, or maybe something slightly different.

[00:23:52] Michelle: One of the things that I try and do is really talk to the individuals who would be kind of being managed above, to really understand what are the things that you would look for in a manager. Because I had it said to me, like, I want you to still be my manager, and I said okay, well, what are the things, the qualities that you are getting from me, so that I understand what I can look for in somebody that I'm bringing in? Because I guarantee that you will be much more effectively served by somebody who is focused and prioritizing this only versus a lot of other things. So it's really about building that trust with that individual and those individuals to make sure that they understand that no, they're not going to be replaced, know that you still value them, know that they're still driving impact and are high performers, to really help them build that sense of understanding and buy-in essentially.

Q&A: staying sane working remotely

[00:24:41] Host: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on adaptability. We all know that it's super, super important. So I think we have time now for a few questions from the audience.

[00:25:00] Audience: Is this on? Okay. I think obviously the biggest adaptability we all had to go through was 2020, so I'm curious what sort of tactics you all put into place to keep yourself sane and mentally and physically healthy when it comes to working remotely and keeping that work life balance.

[00:25:18] Nishtha: I could go first. Really stupid things, to be honest. Like waking up in the morning and leaving the house only to come back, just to be like, okay, now my day has started. Or things that denote specific days of the week, that honestly I still do. Again, really stupid things: I would buy flowers every Friday to be like, it's Friday, because how would you know? There's no way, everything's the same. So now I have flowers every Friday, and it sounds stupid, but I think things like that.

[00:25:52] Nishtha: Baking in breaks within your back-to-back meetings if you're working remotely, it's just those types of things. Trying to, even though it's cringey at first, still encouraging some kind of team social activity, because it is something that is overlooked very easily and can get very cringy very quickly. We've all been in those weird trivia Zoom things where everyone's having a bad time, but honestly you're still seeing people[?], and that's community. It's just how you look at it. Sometimes the cringe brings people together. I like to say trauma bonds people more than anything, so if that's what it is, if it's like a cringe Airbnb experience, then do it. The first one's hard, especially when you're bringing it into a team, like, everyone just please try this, but it will motivate other people to try something that they've liked, or at least bring about that culture.

[00:26:44] Michelle: Just things to add on to that. Finding moments, because I think the pandemic happened and then it never really unwound, and so we're kind of all still living in this semblance of the pre and post world of that. And I think now kind of adapting to the future of what that would look like now, as companies are coming back into the office and hybrid is kind of here to stay in some capacities. Some of the things that I often tend to try to do as well is, in these moments where you're bringing your team together, sometimes it can feel very daunting for the leader, for one person to always take that initiative, to always have to organize that thing. So how do you involve the entire team in that process?

[00:27:23] Michelle: We created basically a Google Sheet with a couple of people, they paired as well, so that you're not having one person feel so daunted. We would basically do a shared cuisine, so somebody would pick, and we'd have a virtual lunch or virtual whatever it might be, and we'd say it's Italian, and so we'd all order Italian. There's still some connective tissue that's being woven between individuals, and it can be very simple and not super high stakes or not super high effort either.

[00:27:51] Avantika: I can say I'm an introvert, so some of these Zoom sessions where you socialize and play trivia were pretty terrifying to me, but I will say that I had to create ways to adapt to this new culture like everyone else. I faced a lot of Zoom fatigue earlier on in the pandemic, and so took things like video off days, where it's just like, I can't see my face on a screen anymore.

[00:28:14] Avantika: I think the other thing I struggled with a little bit was just the boundaries between work and life got so blurry. It didn't feel like work from home, it felt like living at work. So I really had to be very intentional about these transition activities, like Nishtha was saying. After work I'll take my dog for a walk, and that is the transition activity at which point I'm done with work. And I set those boundaries very clearly for myself, or I will only work in this specific space and then when I'm done, turn my laptop off and then I'm relaxing. So setting those boundaries for yourselves, respecting what you need, I think those were the ways that I coped.

Q&A: personal adaptability as you become more senior

[00:28:49] Host: Nice, thank you. Awesome. I think we have time for maybe one more question.

[00:28:57] Audience: Thank you. I have a question about individual personal adaptability. I think moving from junior to mid to senior designer, especially across different companies, when you're like one in 20 to one in one, has been a little bit tough, just becoming your own manager or having to adapt in that way. Do you have any advice or personal experiences with that?

[00:29:28] Avantika: Maybe I can start. I've definitely felt that. I think that there's this expectation that the job you do as an IC is very similar to the job you'll do as a manager or at the next level up. It's definitely not the case, the role completely changes, and like you were saying, it can feel isolating because you have a smaller set of peers to talk to. One thing that I found useful is, even though maybe the set of peers who are doing exactly the job I'm doing is smaller, maybe it's one in three group product managers right now, I'll try to find people maybe in other functions or other departments or even outside our company. I chat with Michelle sometimes, and that's a good way to stay sane as well, just hear from other people. Even though they're not doing your exact job, they might have shared challenges, and how they manage their teams or how they are adapting to work from home or how they're keeping their team connected. So yeah, I try to seek out those connections, and that's been really helpful for me. Curious what everyone else thinks.

[00:30:21] Michelle: Beyond your networks, beyond other people who are at your role, you're going to face your own challenges all the time, whether it is failing, whether it is getting into a role and feeling kind of outside your boots a little bit. A lot of what I try and do personally is keep a log of the things that I feel really good at, I do these things really well, because it's so easy to get down on yourself when you do something wrong, that one thing, and then that thought just grows in your head and that's all you can remember. I also just try and ask for feedback from folks around me who I'm either on a one-on-one with, or an adjacent team, whatever the case may be.

[00:31:08] Michelle: And then when I'm thinking about, yeah, it feels super lonely, being a head of product is super lonely and you feel like you have the weight of the world on your shoulders sometimes, I look for external people outside of my organization who I can just have coffee breaks with, or who I can have a Zoom wine night with, or who I can go on walks with the dog with, who are able to be that board of directors for me, my personal board of directors, and finding those people and adapting that over time as you grow as well. So yeah, that's all I can say.

[00:31:42] Nishtha: I agree, personal board of directors or whatever you want to call them, I think it's so important, especially when you go from the junior to mid to senior designer. I think it's a very unique journey in that you suddenly feel really, really responsible for something, and it can be exciting but it can also be daunting. I think something that's really important is, yes, take on the challenge, it's an opportunity, but also try to make notes to yourself of what you don't like and whether this is the thing you want to keep doing, or if you want to go back to one of five or one of a hundred or one of five thousand, whatever it is. It's important to just make sure you're learning what you like and don't like, and you're prioritizing putting yourself in a position where you're doing more of what you like and less of what you maybe don't like. So I think the personal adaptability comes from your ability to recognize what you don't like, finding those patterns, and then you decide whether you want to do more of it or less of it.

[00:32:41] Host: Cool, thank you. Awesome. Well, thank you, and give a round of applause to our panelists again. So thank you once again to Avantika, Kathy, Nishtha and Michelle. Thank you.