Driving Transformational Business Results: The Role of Design Across the Org

Daniela Jorge, Alex Burke at UXDX USA. Video: https://youtu.be/q56blPTHTEg

Readable transcript: edited from the recording's captions for readability (fillers and false starts removed, punctuation and section headings added). Wording is the speaker's own. Timestamps are positions in the video. Names marked [?] could not be verified against the audio.

Designing with people, not just for them

[00:00:09] Alex: Thank you, Joe. Hi, everyone. Nice to be back at UXDX; I ran a fireside last year. Today I'm with Daniela, and this should be a great talk. We're going to talk about a few themes. I'm going to kick off with a little bit about collaboration and working together, and how to build effective teams. We're then going to tap into Daniela's career journey, what it is to be a design leader, and then we'll finish off talking a little bit about strategy and creating a vision in a company of 50,000 people: how do you make that work? So to kick off, Daniela, let's start with collaboration, and working with multidisciplinary teams. Talk through how you think about making those teams effective.

[00:01:00] Daniela: Sure. Hi everyone, really excited to be here talking about what I think is one of my favorite topics. What I always like to say is, we all get into design, and we go to design school, and the focus is really around designing for people. Then when you get into your first job, you're like, oh, no one prepared me for how to design with people. And that's a whole other set of challenges that all of a sudden you have to learn: how to navigate, how to align folks, et cetera.

[00:01:33] That's really, for me, how I reframe all of my design training. I think about it like this: if you have a group of people who ideally are aligned around a common goal, but who are bringing a bunch of other things to the table and to the mix, how do you make that work? I like to equate it to going to dinner. If anyone has ever experienced trying to make a decision with other people about where to go to dinner or what to get for dinner: all of you want to get fed, but one person is on a diet, another person has some restrictions, someone else is feeling like Mexican, Italian, whatever it might be.

[00:02:14] To me it was really about applying that same curiosity that we learn when designing for people to the people that you're designing with, and trying to really understand what's keeping them up at night, what their motivators are, what they're trying to accomplish, what pressures they might be under. To really make sure that we're putting all of that out there and finding that common language and common way of working. Being curious about the business, so that I'm not coming in speaking design when everyone else is speaking business. It's really about being mindful of the fact that you're now trying to get design work done with a bunch of people.

Aligning on the problem and success criteria first

[00:02:55] Alex: Give me an example. You've obviously had some fantastic experiences. What's an example where you've really delivered the best customer experience, and what was the magic behind getting that one team working together?

[00:03:08] Daniela: I'll give a couple of examples: some more generic answers, and then maybe some specific examples. On the more generic piece, where that's happened best was where we could get teams to align on the problem that we were solving and on the success criteria before we ever started designing. I find that really critical, because it's much easier for people to align on what success looks like.

[00:03:36] Alex: Yeah.

[00:03:36] Daniela: And it's a little bit harder where opinions come in: well, I don't like this, I like that, I don't like this part of the design. So that's a key practice that I feel works really well.

[00:03:50] The specific example that I'll give that's representative of that was at a prior company. We were redesigning our app, and we knew that it needed to be redesigned for a number of reasons. The IA was broken, the app wasn't scaling because we had added so many things to it, and we knew that it was really hard for customers to use. But we also knew that the business had this goal of wanting to introduce customers to more features, to more products. So that was a great way of aligning against a goal that the business had, and actually saying, hey, if we have this goal of having people discover more of our products and features, that will be the success criteria, and the only way we can achieve that is if we redesign the app.

[00:04:41] Alex: Yeah.

[00:04:41] Daniela: And because that was the goal, we could make all of the design recommendations and a lot of the design decisions, and it was easy to measure whether or not we were accomplishing the goal that we had set out to achieve. No one was changing course midway and saying, no, now we've moved the goalposts and it's this other goal that we have. So I think it's always about being really clear on the problem that you're solving, and on how you'll measure whether or not you're going in the right direction.

A seat at the table

[00:05:07] Alex: Yeah, that's super clear. There have been talks earlier about design having a seat at the table, and what that means and how important that is. What's your perspective on that kind of statement?

[00:05:22] Daniela: I have a lot of feelings and thoughts on this, as I'm sure you all do. More in the sense that I feel like sometimes, as an industry, as a community, we get too obsessed with design having a seat at the table, the collective. When I reflect back on when I know team members are being included, or when I'm invited to a discussion, it's all because of what that person is bringing to the discussion. It's not because they're saying, we need design in the room, who from design should be in the room? No. It's because they will say, I want John's or I want Daniela's opinions and contributions on this.

[00:06:03] I feel like that's really important. If we're always trying to say we want people to think of us as design first, individual second, that's a much harder hill to climb. It's much easier for you to think about what you are contributing. If individually all of us are showing up in a way that's very influential, that's informed through business acumen, where we're able to speak much more broadly than just the role that we play in design, you'll get invited over and over again. Then that's how design gets a seat at the table. But trying to do it as the collective, and having our roles recognized, I think is a much tougher thing. You're a business leader: do you think about that?

[00:06:44] Alex: No, the same. It's really important. I think the best team dynamics I've had over the years have always been a multidisciplinary group, a multicultural group, different perspectives, and you want different perspectives in the room. That's where generally you get the best output. And I really like the fact that it's your attributes, it's who you are, your energy, your skill set, your experience that you're bringing to a team.

Choosing management and becoming a business leader

[00:07:08] Alex: So, a younger you: how do you get into an exec leadership position? What would you recommend to someone who's earlier on in their design career, or thinking about making that step to leadership or even a line management role? What advice would you give?

[00:07:26] Daniela: Let me start with how I picked management over staying on the individual contributor path. It happened very early for me, for a couple of reasons. One is that in my first job I was working with some very talented designers, and I saw that they had amazing ideas. They came up with designs that were way better than what I was coming up with. To be perfectly honest [?], I was a good designer; they were amazing. But sometimes their ideas wouldn't go very far. They didn't know how to communicate, they didn't know how to drive to that alignment, how to pitch it to folks who were in decision-making roles at the time.

[00:08:10] I got really motivated to figure out how I could help other designers be more effective in being heard, in being influential. Creating an environment for them to apply their amazing skills was what motivated me, and it became a really easy decision to choose management over continuing down the individual contributor path. Then I think it was continuing to do that, helping other designers be effective in complex organizations. And I've always been really curious about how businesses work, every facet of each business, and had opinions on all of those things. So I would get invited to discussions that went well beyond what I was doing from a design perspective, and I think that's what helped me get into bigger and bigger leadership roles.

[00:08:56] Alex: Yeah.

[00:08:57] Daniela: So it was yes because I knew how to make design work, but also yes because I showed up as a business leader.

Becoming an expert in complex organizations

[00:09:05] Alex: Nice. So talk about your journey. Everyone's got their own career journey of how they fall into roles. On your career journey, what things did you learn along the way that have actually contributed to your leadership style?

[00:09:20] Daniela: The first thing, and when Alex and I were preparing for this, one of the things that I mentioned to him, is that I ended up becoming an expert in working in complex organizations, not necessarily by choice. When I started off, I was an international student here in the US, and I needed companies to sponsor my visa. Back then this wasn't as common as it is today, so only larger companies were willing to actually make that investment and go through that process, and had legal teams or legal companies that would do that for them. So that was my first job, and then when you would get your visa transferred, you needed the same kind of companies that were willing to do that.

[00:10:04] As a designer, and as someone who likes to observe humans and how systems work, there's something about complex organizations that was very intriguing to me: figuring out how these groups of people come together and get things done, how decisions are being made. So I stuck with it. That has been my professional journey. Observing how humans come together, how things happen, and why companies make the decisions that they make has really helped shape me in a way that goes beyond just design leadership: being able to have opinions and a view and an understanding of how all aspects of the company work.

Leading through relationships and saying the thing

[00:10:49] Alex: And now, as a leader, what would you say are your key strengths in how you manage your team and manage up? What kind of leader are you now shaped to be?

[00:11:02] Daniela: Building relationships, I feel, is probably how I lead. Maybe that came from, and helped, tremendously, being an immigrant; it's one of those things that you almost have to invest more in. So I feel like I picked up those skills and always applied them to work. Once you get to know people as people, it's so much easier to, first of all, not take things personally, to be able to have the conversations that you need to have, to be able to send someone a text message or a Slack and say, hey, I heard this, or I saw this.

[00:11:38] Just last week I had to reach out to a colleague and say, back to the seat at the table: hey, I know you're having this really important meeting, I heard our team isn't included, how can we get design in there? If I didn't have that relationship, it would be much harder for me to send someone a message out of the blue saying, hey, how can I get my team into that meeting, into that discussion? So I always lead with getting to know people and building those relationships, first and foremost.

[00:12:05] I think the other thing is just saying the thing. I don't think you need to say it in a way that's aggressive or that hurts those relationships; quite the contrary. Sometimes there's that elephant in the room that no one else is calling out. Putting it out there, but then helping to facilitate, drawing on our design facilitation skills to get teams realigned, or to get teams to talk about the thing that isn't being said that's getting in the way, are all things that I feel I bring to the table. As does, I think, anyone in design or product or technology who is having to work cross-functionally.

Storytelling and thinking audience first

[00:12:43] Alex: Do you think design also influences the way that you storytell? I've always felt that it's an expression of it: if you think about simplicity and clarity of message, that's probably something that you need to be doing.

[00:12:56] Daniela: Absolutely. I wouldn't [?] say that I'm a great storyteller, but I always think about the audience first, and that again comes from my design training. I'm always thinking: if we say this, what will the audience think? Is that the right thing to say to this particular audience, or to an executive? So always thinking audience first. And I know, as a CEO, we were talking about how for you that's also...

[00:13:22] Alex: Yeah, it's different. I think for you, because you started in a large organization, right off the bat you've had to work in a matrix. You had to work out and navigate how you work with people, how you influence people, and how you storytell. For me personally, I'm now on my third CEO journey, but I started in broadcast television. Thinking back, there were two skills that I learned in broadcast television which I still use to this day. One: I worked on a news show, and it had a deadline of 5:00 p.m. on a Friday. We had to finish the show. For me that really helped with my project management and organizational skills, because I just knew I had to deliver. If we didn't deliver, there was no show.

[00:14:10] The other thing was storytelling. I learned a lot; I was quite a creative producer at the time. And all I do is storytell now. I'm storytelling visions to my team, I'm communicating a strategy, but also for my investors and the exec suite it's about clarity of message, and a lot of that is storytelling and relationship building. It's interesting, with all the mentions of technology and other bits and pieces: I think business is all about people. It's all about relationships and how you navigate those, and those base skills that people have are important in whatever role you're in.

[00:14:50] Daniela: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And again, it's so core to what we do as designers. It's just that we're much more focused on storytelling as taking users along on a journey, and I think it's no different in terms of the dynamics of the people you work with.

Strategy: start from the outside and work backwards

[00:15:05] Alex: Yeah. So think about strategic planning and creating a vision. How do you start that motion in an organization like the one you're in? How do you start that process and initiate those new ideas, new initiatives?

[00:15:25] Daniela: Capital One specifically has a way of approaching strategy that I really appreciate. It's a very cross-functional effort, which is awesome. But what I really like is that we always start by looking at the outside. This will sound very familiar to everyone in the audience, I think, but we look at what's happening in the world. What are folks that are great at this thing doing? What are those beacon companies doing? What's happening from a technology standpoint? And then work backwards to where the point of highest leverage is for us. Then we do the so-whats and what-ifs of problem solving, if you will, diverging in terms of everything that it could be, and then come back with a recommendation on what the strategy needs to be. I really appreciate that approach to strategy.

[00:16:13] Then from a more specific design perspective, I'm also a big fan of working backwards from that compelling story or that compelling destination. That's something that we also do quite often, whatever method or delivery mechanism you might choose. It could be a prototype, it could be the press release, it could be whatever it is. But working backwards, and then figuring out how you deliver against that exciting destination, is something that we utilize quite often.

[00:16:46] Alex: So that gives a nice structure. It almost centers the team back on what problem you're trying to solve, what the focus is. And then, so you create this new vision: how do you cascade that message, and what does that look like when there are 50,000 employees and it might be something big for the organization? What does that process look like?

[00:17:07] Daniela: I would say it probably varies depending on what the strategy is. But I think the more important piece of it is that everyone is clear on what the message is, and then it's everyone's role to carry that message and to activate or connect back to that strategy. Of course, yes, it gets cascaded to everyone in the company, but then it's how you link back to it. For instance, in design we might say, hey, at the company strategy level you heard this thing, and here's how what we're doing ladders up to what you heard in that session, providing that line of sight back to that strategy.

[00:17:50] But it really varies. I think back to a prior experience at another company, where the president of that company really liked to do a big media event with whatever the strategy was for the year. In that case we had videos and prototypes, and it was much more like what you might see in a demo, when companies...

[00:18:15] Alex: Exactly, yeah.

[00:18:16] Daniela: So I found that it really varies depending on the context and on company dynamics and company culture [?].

Keeping the team on course

[00:18:22] Alex: Yeah. And some of those messages might be one big message, or it might be multiple messages that you're repeating.

[00:18:27] Daniela: Yes.

[00:18:28] Alex: And then how do you make it happen? How do you track how that works with you and the team? You've created this vision, and maybe there's a pathway of updating a product of some sort, and you've got a six-month horizon. Are there weekly check-ins, monthly check-ins? How does that operate for you?

[00:18:50] Daniela: It's a good question. Again, I think it will vary per initiative that you might be working on. Personally, as a leader, and my team too, we like to be personally involved in a couple of key priorities, and what we'll do is make sure that we have coverage across. On some of the projects that I'm in, we're meeting every two weeks to see how things are going. And back to that point earlier around the goals that we set out: are we still aligned on those goals? Do we still feel like what we're building is going to deliver on the goals? What's the learning agenda, to make sure that the decisions we're making along the way are really connecting back to the success criteria that we defined early on?

[00:19:36] The cadences and the rhythms may vary, but I think what's more important is that discipline and rigor of having the success metrics and having a learning agenda. Because it's really easy, and I'm sure you've all experienced this, when all of a sudden there are roadblocks, constraints, et cetera, or a team falls in love with an idea, to take a complete right turn and not realize that you've taken that turn. So I think what's really important is always reminding yourselves: it's valid to take a right turn, but it needs to be intentional, because maybe you got new data. That discipline of connecting back to what you were attempting to do, and why, is what really matters.

[00:20:15] Alex: So is that almost a practical tip: if you do receive roadblocks, center back to where you started and make a decision point about whether you want to pivot or not?

[00:20:26] Daniela: A thousand percent. And I think being that person who actually says, hey, did something change? When we set out, this is what we said we were solving for. Did something change and now we're solving for a different thing, or are we actually veering off course? Asking those questions is a really good way of getting that clarity. Maybe design wasn't in the room and a decision was made, but asking clarifying questions is really important.

[00:20:53] Alex: Yeah, it's quite a simple concept really, but that alignment before you get going is super important.

[00:21:01] Daniela: Agreed.

Q&A

[00:21:04] Alex: Cool. Joe, shall I ask some questions? Is it time to move? Okay, we have a few questions that are going to come up. I've got one here, so we'll jump on to the first one. What recommendations would you give to others on growing into leadership roles while staying true to themselves?

[00:21:24] Daniela: I love that question, because I feel like we all have an image in our heads of what you must be like to be a leader. And the reality is leaders come in all shapes and sizes. I'm a complete introvert. I'm shy. I'm not the person who likes to have the spotlight on me. I'm not someone with this big rah-rah personality. But none of that, I think, gets in the way of me being an effective leader. If anything, I feel like you just need to know who you are at the core. You don't have to compromise on who you are, and if anything, being authentic to who you are is what's going to make you most effective as a leader. People pick up on it when you're not being authentic, when you're playing a character.

[00:22:14] So I feel like you should just lean into the things that make you you. Lean into your strengths. We all have strengths and we all have gaps, and you can always complement that with the folks that are around you. I know we were talking a little bit about this before coming in here. You're a CEO: how have you stayed true to yourself on this journey?

[00:22:40] Alex: I think much the same. When I first took on the CEO role, I was there for 11 years, the final six as CEO, and I had earned the right to be the CEO. It was a CEO traineeship, so I wasn't really getting much support or much advice, and I went on my gut feel. My gut feel was very much around culture and aligning teams to a vision, and I feel like I've kept true to that throughout. And I think you're super right: when you look at roles, there are designers and there are engineers and there are product managers and the like, and I think you get a bit caught up sometimes in the discipline of it, and you lose the opportunity of your own authenticity. That might be that you've moved a number of countries and have a different background. It might be that you switched roles at a certain point. Or you might just have a knack for presenting, or a knack for managing a workshop, or whatever it might be. All those skills and attributes are important, and it's probably worth having a sense yourself of what they are.

[00:23:46] All right, here we go. After working in small startups for the past decade, what would help prepare for a transition to a larger organization?

[00:23:56] Daniela: That's a really good question, and I'm someone who hasn't had the experience of working in small startups. It is a different experience. I feel like some of the principles will probably be the same as what we already covered: relationships will still matter, knowing the business will still matter. One thing that you ideally bring with you: I feel like when you're in a startup, and from those that I've advised in the past, you get to have much more of a say, or at least exposure to all aspects of the business, than you might by default in a complex organization.

[00:24:38] It's very easy in a large organization to pigeonhole yourself, staying in your lane and not being curious about what the risk organization is doing, or what's happening in legal, or what's happening in the large HR department. The fact that in a small startup you have that visibility across: bring that with you. I actually think that will really help you as you get into a large organization, so that you really understand the larger organization at scale, all of the different groups and what they all do, and how you can work with all of them and leverage those relationships.

[00:25:13] Alex: Yeah, it's really interesting. I've worked on both sides. Coming from large into small, you can take some of that structure. That structural thing is good around setting alignment and goals, and it's an important thing that you can absolutely take to a startup so it's not chaotic and all over the place. It's almost a calming thing. And likewise, if you switch it, if you can bring a little bit more of that entrepreneurial spirit, some of those generalist skills that you've built up, that can actually help you in the dynamic with your teams and in building relationships and the like.

[00:25:48] Okay, next question. Reflecting on your journey to leadership in tech, what was the most significant barrier you faced as a woman in tech? Do you believe that challenge still persists for women entering the industry today?

[00:26:04] Daniela: This is always a tough question, in the sense that I think all of the things that make you unique can be barriers. I also feel like they can be things that you lean into as a way to connect with others. For sure, I'm sure that I was left out of certain conversations or outings because of my gender. We all know that that happens. But if anything, I really leaned into the fact that I was a woman bringing a different perspective into conversations. I leaned into the fact that I was an immigrant and had a different lived experience than others. I always leaned into the fact that I was a designer.

[00:26:52] I know this is going to sound like I'm contradicting myself, but if anything, I would highlight the fact that I had a very different perspective than everyone else in the room, and bring in a very different opinion, or call out the fact that we were overlooking something. And I actually feel like people appreciated that. They appreciated the fact that I was raising a point that no one else in the room was seeing. I do believe that's why I would then get invited back into the room, getting that seat at the table. So even though I recognized that yes, some of those things got in the way, I also leaned into it and felt like it was a differentiator that others should appreciate versus resent.

[00:27:35] Alex: It's almost like there's a concept of one team, and I'd say you're a big team player. You're coming in, and you understand how to collaborate and play in that dynamic. Being a good team player means people want to work with you. You're not in a silo, you're not doing your own thing. You're working with people, you're curious with people, and you're collaborating with people. No one thing is possible alone; it needs a whole group of individuals to deliver the business results. Ultimately it's a team game.

[00:28:09] Daniela: Yeah. And I feel like you can be a team player and also an individual, and have those individual experiences and authenticity.

[00:28:17] Alex: Exactly. Nice. What is the biggest challenge you have today in your role? Maybe one that you didn't expect stepping into your current role.

[00:28:30] Daniela: Probably the biggest challenge is figuring out where to spend my time. I talked earlier about how I always try to pick a couple of things that at any given time I'm personally involved in, because they're strategically important for the company, where maybe design is a real point of leverage for that particular initiative. That's always the hardest thing, especially when you have a large team that works across many, many areas. It always means that you're going to be ignoring parts of what your team is working on in order to do that. But I'm also really big on focus. I feel like for you to actually have an impact and make a difference, you have to be focused. But that's always the challenging part. It feels like you're picking your favorite child.

[00:29:19] Alex: Do you have tricks for how you prioritize? How do you go about that?

[00:29:22] Daniela: It's usually what I mentioned: something that's hugely strategically important for the company, and also something where design, or my customer experience perspective, will have a meaningful impact. And the other important piece is being very explicit about the fact that I'm doing that. My team knows that's what I'm doing, and that it doesn't mean their thing is not important, and that the area they work in might be the thing I'll be focusing on three months from now. It's not a static decision. Being very explicit about what I'm focusing on, and, to the point I made earlier, making sure that each of us on the team is also leaning into a couple of things, is how we then get that broad coverage and attention.

[00:30:11] Alex: That's just a great skill set to have to keep things moving. Because if you couldn't do that, or didn't do that, you'd just be drowning in information and bits and pieces, because there is a never-ending list of things that we could be doing.

[00:30:25] Daniela: That's right. And I feel like you minimize your impact if you're spread across too many things all at once.

[00:30:30] Alex: And someone in a more junior role: how do they manage that? They're being told what to do in their group. Is there a dynamic? Is it again being a team player and being transparent about what you're doing? Can you operate the same way looking up?

[00:30:44] Daniela: I think you can, even when you're more junior. I feel like you can have a point of view on where you need to prioritize, and then check with others to make sure that there's alignment on what you're prioritizing. The other thing, which is a slightly different take on this question: one of the best designers I ever had working for me would come to our one-on-ones, and whenever I would ask her to do something else, she would pull out her list of priorities and say, if this is the most important thing, do you agree that these two things should drop? As a new manager, it was like, wow, that's a really tough question, but I love that she's doing that to me. She trained me to be much better at actually helping my team prioritize, and I really applauded her for doing that.

[00:31:32] Alex: Yeah. In some ways that might be a tough question, and there might even be a tough conversation, because it's not what you want to hear. But going back to alignment and focus, that conversation is important, because when you have that clarity you can move forward and progress in whatever you're...

[00:31:51] Daniela: That's exactly right.

[00:31:52] Alex: ...whatever you're focused on. All right, I think we've got room for another quick question. How do you balance competing priorities in the financial industry, like optimizing UX while mitigating fraud? Because you're in the banking industry, highly regulated. How does that work for you in terms of decisions?

[00:32:16] Daniela: Again, it's definitely a team sport. It's not something that we decide alone. But I think it goes back to where we started, which is being really clear on the metrics that you're solving for.

[00:32:30] Alex: Managing the risks in the right way.

[00:32:33] Daniela: That's exactly right. I feel like, while things may appear equal, there is always a tiebreaker in those decisions, where you may have to choose one over the other. But I also think that's where creativity really comes in. I actually feel like sometimes the more constrained or limited the situation, the more creative you get.

[00:32:55] Alex: Yeah, and it's a good conversation to have, because being really clear on your risks, and having conversations around how you might mitigate those, or approaches, et cetera, makes you better problem solvers. Everything's up front and you're much more aware of things.

[00:33:13] Daniela: And bringing those folks into the discussion too. I think some of my favorite projects, and I think my most innovative moments, have been where you actually have folks like fraud, risk and legal in the room brainstorming on solutions, instead of them just coming in with the constraints. No, invite them into the room.

[00:33:34] Alex: Back to subject matter experts being in the room and working together.

[00:33:37] Daniela: And they don't want to just be walking around with a stick. They also want to be problem solvers. So invite them into the room, and you'll come up with much better outcomes.

[00:33:46] Alex: Cool. Thanks so much, Daniela, that was great.

[00:33:50] Daniela: Thank you. Thanks everyone.