Unforgettable Presence

Lorraine K. Lee, Ryan Leffel at UXDX Community: In-Person and Livestreamed from NYC: Thriving in the New Era of Work. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfI02ht4l68

Readable transcript: edited from the recording's captions for readability (fillers and false starts removed, punctuation and section headings added). Wording is the speaker's own. Timestamps are positions in the video. Names marked [?] could not be verified against the audio.

Welcome and housekeeping

[00:22:06] Ryan: All right, we're going to get this going here. How's everybody doing tonight? For those of you who haven't met, I'm Ryan. I work really closely with the UXDX team to run these events out of New York. This is the eighth time we're doing it, so really excited to have you all here. I have a few slides, so let me just move around here a little bit.

[00:22:26] Ryan: Okay. So first, this is UXDX Global Community Week. So tonight Lisbon, we have Dublin, Washington DC is going tonight. You're all in New York, so New York is going tonight, Washington, we have Istanbul going tomorrow. I think there's something else going on next week. So it's really exciting to be a part of this one.

[00:22:50] Ryan: UXDX also has bigger conferences every year. Prices get increasingly more expensive, so if anybody's looking for a discount, community20, that's it. Write it down, take a picture. Community and 20, because it's 20% off. That's how, back at some point in December, at least tentatively we want to do something in December. Keep an eye out for an announcement, do some kind of a fun end of the year event. So keep an eye out. John Cena is watching you.

[00:23:25] Ryan: And if anyone's ever interested in getting involved in speaking at any of the meetups, hit me up after. Find me in between sessions. I'd definitely like to talk to you and figure out how we can make that happen.

[00:23:37] Ryan: And I am really excited about tonight. I think we have great content tonight. So tonight isn't about craft. It's not about design. It's not about programming. It's not about product. This is about showing up. It's about presence. It's about leadership. It's about what you should be thinking about as we're going into 2026. So these are the important things. Understand, this stuff actually makes you better at craft. It makes you better at your job. So I'm really excited to get to talk about some of this tonight.

[00:24:07] Ryan: One thing that I want to do before we kick this off, and by the way, we're live streaming. This is the first time we've live streamed one of these events, so this is going to be kind of weird for the people who are on the webinar. But I just want to take a minute here where, find somebody you don't know, who you've never talked to before. Don't cheat, so don't turn to a colleague. Find somebody you don't know, and in one minute find out who that person is, where they're from, where they work. We're going to get going in three, two, one. Go to it. Come on, talk to somebody. You guys are in it too.

[00:24:52] Ryan: You guys have been talking, you're cheating. All right, come on, jump in there. Participate. Be participators. Jump in there with other people.

[00:25:32] Ryan: All right, networking game is over. All right, listen up. You're late, you're late to the game. All right. We're going to get going here with the content. Hope you all have more chance to talk and get to know each other at the end. Find somebody else who you haven't met. But I do want to ask, who here has cheated? Who cheated? Who talked to somebody that they already know? Show of hands. No cheaters. All right, good job. Then you'll have more time to do it. But that's one of the important things about these events, talking to people that you don't know. Networking is a big part of this. That being said, I want to introduce Lorraine. We're going to kick this off.

Meeting Lorraine

[00:26:34] Ryan: All right. So I'm really excited to have this conversation about presence and about showing up. For those of you who don't know Lorraine, introduce yourself.

[00:26:48] Lorraine: I'm Lorraine, normally based in San Francisco, but here in New York for the week. I spent the first decade of my career leading editorial teams at various tech companies. So I was a founding editor at LinkedIn and a founding editor at a company called Prezi, which some of you may be familiar with as designers. And it was at the end of 2022 that I got impacted by the tech layoffs, and so had to decide, did I want to start my own company or apply for another job?

[00:27:15] Lorraine: And I founded my company, Rise Learning Solutions, where I am a keynote speaker. I teach courses through LinkedIn Learning, also at Stanford. My book, Unforgettable Presence, came out at the end of April, and I also am a content creator on LinkedIn. And Ryan and I met through LinkedIn. You reached out, you had me on to interview me for your podcast, and yeah, just very excited to be here with all of you today.

[00:27:38] Ryan: So, pass the mic back and forth here. So, Lorraine, you've built a great reputation around presence. So what sparked your focus in that space, and what led you to write your book?

[00:27:52] Lorraine: The impetus for the book really started way back during my time at LinkedIn, where I was someone who worked really hard. I worked on high visibility projects. I was well liked by my peers, showed up with a positive attitude, and I was there for six years. And so on paper, by all accounts, those qualities I would think would lead to a promotion. But as hard as I tried and pushed for it and kept working even harder, it just didn't happen for me, unfortunately.

[00:28:22] Lorraine: And it wasn't until I left LinkedIn that I had that space to think about, okay, what could I have done differently? What went wrong? And I was able to talk to mentors and peers, and I realized that a lot of it really came down to presence in terms of how others saw me. And then I joined Prezi soon after, and then a few months later it was covid, and then I realized, oh, presence is not just about how others see me, it's also about where others see me, because now we have a video presence. LinkedIn presence has become even more important, and we technically have presence in so many different touch points that we have in a day. So in a Slack message, in email, the way that we lead meetings.

[00:29:04] Lorraine: And so I really wanted to redefine how we think about presence, because it's not just, I'm at a certain level, executive presence, but it's really about intentionality about the smaller and more frequent moments where we show up in our day to day. And so Wiley approached me through LinkedIn. A book was something that I was excited to do, but not necessarily on my vision board initially. And then when they came to me, all these ideas flowed out and I was like, okay, this is the idea and I think this is the right time.

[00:29:37] Ryan: Awesome. We will jump more into the book. I don't, is this working? We will get more into the book, but things change fast, right? So how have you seen expectations around presence change over the years?

[00:29:52] Lorraine: So when we hear the word presence, a lot of us probably think about executive presence. Executive presence and presence more generally, I touched on a few of the points. We have a virtual presence, and presence is really about all the smaller touch points in a day. Executive presence in particular, we've seen some really interesting research that shows how it's transformed from 2012 to 2022.

[00:30:15] Lorraine: So there was some really interesting research in Harvard Business Review that showed that typical traits across gravitas, communication and appearance have shifted dramatically. So whereas traits like physical attractiveness, forcefulness, a sense of humor were what people perceived as executive presence in 2012, it's now been replaced by things like authenticity, being able to command a Zoom room, a listening to learn orientation. So much more people centric and human first skills, I would say. So I'm happy about that transformation. I think it's only good for women, for introverts, for people who maybe don't fit that stereotypical mold of the loud, kind of brash executive.

[00:31:02] Ryan: Right. And one thing that you mentioned in your book, meetings and LinkedIn are kind of the low hanging fruit.

[00:31:08] Lorraine: Exactly, yeah.

[00:31:09] Ryan: So maybe we could dive into each of them. Start with LinkedIn and then we'll move on to meetings.

LinkedIn as the ultimate virtual office

[00:31:15] Lorraine: Okay. Yeah, LinkedIn requires a little bit of a mindset shift. So I think a lot of people still think about LinkedIn as a place to find a job, and so you're not going to be active on it unless you're looking for a job. But LinkedIn has really transformed. I was part of the team that brought content to the platform, so it's really evolved a lot over the past few years. But it's become our virtual water cooler, our virtual landing page, and really our ultimate virtual office. And so we want to be seen at the office, right, the ultimate virtual office. So I think that mindset shift is really important to begin with.

[00:31:52] Lorraine: And then as you start building your presence on LinkedIn, so many things can come from it. You're staying top of mind even if you're happy at your current job. You putting yourself out there, because it's hard to do, you're seen as more of a leader internally. I know that happened to me. I found more confidence, I found more of my voice through posting and writing regularly on LinkedIn. I also brought that into my company. You get to meet amazing people who you wouldn't have otherwise met. You added me on LinkedIn, I was like, who is this guy? I'm going on your profile and looking, and I'm like, okay, he looks legit. And then we got to talking and we got to do the podcast and do this right now. So, very powerful.

[00:32:32] Ryan: So what would you say to somebody who has thought about starting to get involved with LinkedIn, but they don't really know what to do or what to talk about?

[00:32:44] Lorraine: The first thing I would say is to remove some pressure from yourself. Well, actually, I'd be curious from the audience. So give me a thumbs up if you post somewhat regularly, or post things other than I got a new job or I got this award. And then give me a thumbs down if you're not really posting, which is fine, no judgment. Okay, I think it's mostly thumbs down in this group.

[00:33:02] Lorraine: So yeah, if you're nervous about posting or just haven't thought about it, the first thing I would say is don't put so much pressure on yourself. When I talk to groups, a lot of times people have an idea or they think they know what they want to post, but they psych themselves out thinking, oh my gosh, it has to be the smartest thing or the most original thought. Honestly, I don't think anything is really that original on LinkedIn. It's about how people are framing it. It's about your challenges and your experiences and who you are that make someone want to listen to you and want to learn from you. So that's the first mindset shift I would say.

[00:33:38] Lorraine: And then I talk about three categories. So I have a whole chapter on LinkedIn in the book: three categories of topics that you can write about or post about. Personal, educational, professional. So I think having those buckets in mind can be really helpful. So educational is usually where people start first. It's, I think, the easiest. You're teaching someone something that you know. Professional, maybe something's happening in the design community, something in the news, something about your company. And then personal, a little bit harder, but that's where people really connect with you, get to know you as a person. You're sharing your challenges, your life stories, your experiences.

Meetings and conversational threading

[00:34:14] Ryan: Awesome. And let's quickly touch on meetings, then we'll move on. So what should somebody understand about meetings and why they're so powerful?

[00:34:23] Lorraine: Most meetings are really, really bad. We all know that, right? And so if the bar for meetings is so low, if you just do a little bit more, a little bit more than the status quo, people are going to be so impressed. So I always talk about it as really low hanging fruit. With meetings there's a number of things that are very easy to implement that have big impact.

[00:34:45] Lorraine: So number one, I have to say, the agenda. And not just the agenda very vaguely, but the agenda in terms of, these are the three topics we're going to talk about in a 25 minute meeting. We're going to spend three minutes on the first thing, seven minutes on the next thing, can't do math, but whatever the rest of the time is on the third thing. And then within those, here's who needs to speak and here's who we need information from. And so being really specific, and then of course having a goal: by the end of this meeting, it will be a success if. That statement can feel a little awkward at first saying it, but it really gets people aligned and understanding what you're supposed to be doing. So the agenda is key.

[00:35:27] Lorraine: And then remembering, if you're facilitating a meeting, to think of yourself a little bit as a workplace entertainer. It's not enough to get on a call and just have it be quiet, or have that small talk, how's the weather. You're setting the tone for the meeting right off the bat. So for a team meeting, maybe a question of the week, maybe a team Spotify playlist. What else can you do? Asking people to write down ideas. So a lot of ways to set the tone that you want them engaged from the start.

[00:35:54] Ryan: So one thing that you're making me think of, in your book you talk about conversation threading. Sometimes you're on meetings at the beginning, it's just people sitting around, inevitably you talk about the weather, that only goes so long. So could you talk a little bit about conversational threading and thinking about that?

[00:36:09] Lorraine: Sure. So I talk a lot about autopilot small talk in my book and how you can use conversational threading to counteract that. So a lot of us don't like small talk, and that's because we're doing it on autopilot. So if we were walking into the office and I say, hey Ryan, how's it going, and you say good, and you say how's it going, I say good, and end of conversation. It doesn't give us much to work with. So if I can predict his answer, that's not a good question.

[00:36:33] Lorraine: Instead I might ask, Ryan, what was the highlight of your weekend, instead of, how was your weekend? And now you have to think back and think, okay, what did I do this weekend? Now you tell me an activity you did. Now we're going back and forth and there's conversation. And so conversational threading is, as the question asker, asking questions that will elicit threads. And then you, as the question answerer, you also want to give more information besides one-word responses. And that allows us to build rapport, because small talk is one of the best ways to build relationships at work when you're doing it the right way.

What, so what, now what

[00:37:07] Ryan: Awesome. Okay, so now you're in the meeting, and one thing you talk about is what, so what and now what. Now what is a framework to help tell us. Can you talk a little bit about how that works?

[00:37:19] Lorraine: The what, so what, now what framework is one of the many frameworks and acronyms in the book, but one of the frameworks that is really helpful in impromptu speaking situations. We've all been in those meetings where an executive asks us or our manager asks us, what's the latest, or what's the update. And if you're put on the spot, if you're introverted like me, if you get nervous, having frameworks is actually the best way to speak confidently on the fly.

[00:37:46] Lorraine: I used to think there were just people who are naturally born with this gift. I'm like, how do they just know how to answer that question right away? I need an hour to think about that. But when you have a framework like what, so what, now what, or past, present, future, you can have that framework in your mind and then answer in a clear, concise way that doesn't lead to rambling.

[00:38:08] Ryan: Then there's building up to actually going through that. I think a lot of the time people have something to say on the meetings, but maybe they're shy or they're not sure if they're saying the right thing. They don't quite want to speak up. So could you talk a little bit about how you advise people just to get that urge, or knowing that it's okay to share what's on their mind?

[00:38:27] Lorraine: Definitely. So I also talk about rules of engagement in the book. So if you are a meeting facilitator, being really explicit about how you want people to participate is key. Again, I'm an introvert. So whenever I lead a meeting I'm going to be very explicit: use the chat, I'm going to be revisiting the chat and making sure that you feel seen. You might do an exercise at the beginning, instead of brainstorming, brainwriting, which is everyone writing down ideas on their own in silence for a few minutes. So there's a lot of things as a facilitator that can be really helpful and show that you are trying to get everyone's voice and not just listening to the loudest voice.

[00:39:06] Lorraine: Now, if you are a little bit quieter, maybe you're remote and your colleagues are in person, finding what I call an extroverted buddy can be kind of fun and helpful as well, where you let them know, oh, can you jump in here and then let me know, or give me an opening to speak. So that can be good. And then again, getting the agenda ahead of time, letting the facilitator know, oh hey, I think I'm going to have something to add here, or I have something that I want to say, can you call on me during that time? One thing I also think is interesting, talking about introverts, I think we talked about this the first time.

[00:39:38] Ryan: Yeah. You're an introvert, right?

[00:39:41] Ryan: I would say, doing events and stuff like that, yeah, it takes effort. I would definitely say yes. And I think one thing we talked about early on is, when you're an introvert, I think of it like I have a lot of weaknesses, or kind of like these shadows, and they prevent me from doing things. And you kind of started talking about, well, there's also a lot of strengths that an introvert has, leaned into this. Can you talk about some of the strengths?

Introvert strengths

[00:40:07] Lorraine: Of course. So actually I'm going to ask the group, give me a thumbs up if you consider yourself to be an extrovert. I will not ask the introverts to raise your hands. Okay, yeah. So it's like five of you. So most of you are either introverts or ambiverts.

[00:40:21] Lorraine: So to your point, I used to feel that way too, where, gosh, it just felt like people just knew how to speak up in the meetings and everyone was just collaborating so quickly and thinking so fast, and I was like, what's wrong with me? Am I not as smart as others in the room? And it wasn't until I realized, one, I'm an introvert, and then realized how introverts really thrive, that I was able to lean into those superpowers and lean into those strengths.

[00:40:49] Lorraine: So as an example, yes, I might not be someone who will speak up super quickly in a meeting, but I'm a strong writer, and I'm going to connect the dots and figure out where the loose ends are and keep everyone on track when everyone's just chatting away and the meeting is unfocused. That's a strength. Public speaking is a strength. A little bit counterintuitive, but planned public speaking scenarios, where we are super thoughtful, we plan, we prepare, we want to understand and make sure we're doing a good job for our audience. All traits important for introverts.

[00:41:21] Lorraine: Building those one-on-one relationships, even more important now in the age of AI, huge introvert strength. So understanding those superpowers and not trying to be an extrovert or act a certain way that doesn't feel natural is just going to take you much farther. And if you try to be someone else, it eventually leads to burnout. It's exhausting at the end of the day.

The EPIC career brand framework

[00:41:43] Ryan: Yes. And kind of circling back, when you started talking about building a brand and a career brand, one thing that you touch on is the EPIC framework. Could you share a little bit about what that is and maybe an example?

[00:41:54] Lorraine: Sure. Yeah. So in the book, chapter one, I talk about this concept of a career brand. A career brand is essentially a personal brand, which is essentially a reputation, but I call it a career brand because sometimes the phrase personal brand can feel a little bit icky to people, or they don't understand why they need it. They're like, a brand, that's for a company, right? A career brand explains what your brand is in service of. It's there to help you with your career. And if we know that a career brand is our reputation, well, we all have a career brand, don't we? So we can either be intentional about it or let others define it for us.

[00:42:29] Lorraine: Now, that example that I shared, that story about me at LinkedIn, gosh, I wish I knew about this concept, because again, hardworking, executes well, well liked, all really nice, positive things. But for a senior leader, and I was trying to get that promotion, probably strategic, great cross-functional partner, visionary, these are the words that you want to be associated with. And so when you can start understanding your brand, where you are now, where you want to be, that's where the growth happens. That's where you can take some actionable steps.

[00:43:05] Lorraine: You mentioned my EPIC career brand framework: experiences, personality, identity, community, the four key criteria to develop your brand. So experiences, your personal and professional life experiences that got you to where you are today. We all have different ones. Personality: what can people expect? Are you more introverted, extroverted? Are you serious? Are you the team culture champion? What personality do you bring? What can people expect when they work with you?

[00:43:33] Lorraine: Identity. This can be things like your cultural background. It can be the values that you operate by in a working environment. So for example, relationships are super important to me. I always want to follow through on my word. And then the last piece, community. This is where a lot of people miss the mark, and you had the community code earlier. A lot of us have a vision of our brand, but if our community and our network does not see us in that same way, well then that's an important disconnect to know about. If they're not saying our name when we're not in the room, that's also an issue. We want people to know about us, to talk about us, and for it to be aligned with the way that we want to be seen.

Presence in the age of AI

[00:44:15] Ryan: Awesome. And I'm going to ask you one more question here, but I feel like if I don't ask you a question that involves AI, then, yeah. But how do you see presence changing in this new world of AI?

[00:44:28] Lorraine: Yeah, I feel like this is always a closing question every time I do one of these. So presence is going to be even more critical in the age of AI, because it is the people centric skills, the soft skills, and your presence can be enhanced with AI. So we have tools that help us with our communication, to find ways to collaborate better. But ultimately it's human to human work, and that's where presence comes in. So even more important, and AI will be a good helper.

[00:45:03] Ryan: Yeah. So I know you have to cut out before we get there, after everyone finishes tonight we're going to have everyone together for questions. So I just wanted to give all of you a chance. Does anyone have any questions? I could run around with the mic.

Q&A with Lorraine

[00:45:45] Lorraine: LinkedIn is still good for more personal information and personal stories, but to your point, we have to use our professional judgment. It is a professional platform. So there are certainly people who are oversharing, who shouldn't be sharing certain things about their lives. But I think all of you, I'm sure, you're at this event, you're very smart, you'll be able to find that line. It's important to show up as our true selves, but we don't need to show up as our whole selves. We all have different aspects to our personality. We have a professional self. So making sure that you are posting with that lens is the way to go.

[00:46:33] Lorraine: Oh, what, so what, now what?

[00:46:37] Audience: How do you prepare this?

[00:46:40] Lorraine: So you only have to know what the framework is. So, what is the situation? So what does that mean? Now what does that mean? Past, present, future is great for updates. Where did we leave off? What's going on now? What's next? And so the whole point is that you don't necessarily have time to prepare. So with that framework, it gives you a road map for how to answer the question. And so you just have it in your head and then you follow along the three steps.

[00:47:21] Ryan: I can hear you, but I don't think the mic is working yet. Cool, great. Yay. Welcome.

[00:48:24] Ryan: And you're sort of referencing, like on LinkedIn there's some people who are just kind of there to be there.

[00:48:34] Lorraine: So I'll talk about LinkedIn first. I think that part that we talked about earlier about that human element, sharing more of your story, is important, because to your point, there's a lot of AI content out there. Now, I do think it's good though for the people who actually take time to create quality content, because the good content is going to rise to the top, and I think a lot of us can tell when something is written purely by AI. So I think from a LinkedIn perspective, I know people get nervous, oh my gosh, there's so much more competition. I actually think it's good news for the people who are caring to write and take the time.

[00:49:09] Lorraine: And also, to your point, we want to make sure that we're posting not just to post, but because we have something important to say. So there's a balance there between staying top of mind and then also making sure that you're getting your voice out there.

[00:49:23] Lorraine: In terms of internally, it is really important to be visible. I know it's, for people who like to do the work and think they should be rewarded by the hard work, unfortunately it's a reality of the way that corporate America is run. However, there are ways to be visible in such a way that doesn't feel like you're bragging or being inauthentic to yourself. So there are strategies in the book around that. I'll just share one right here. More data in the Harvard Business Review showed that when we use more collaborative language, like we, us, our, we're seen as more of leaders, versus people who are using I statements actually are seen as more junior. So I think that's good news for all of us who maybe don't like the spotlight as much. Oh, we can be seen as a leader because we're lifting up everyone around us. So it is important though to know how the game works, and you do have to talk about your work. So yeah, thank you for that question.

[00:51:41] Lorraine: One thing that's really helpful that I also talked about in the book is finding someone to just show your post to. It's such a confidence booster to have someone look at it and just sometimes be that gut check, and just to say, yeah, that's totally fine. Or maybe we're overthinking it and we're thinking it's going to be a bigger thing than it is.

[00:52:00] Lorraine: One thing I would suggest for you is to try commenting a little bit more. Commenting is lower stakes, but still creating content. You're going to grow your following that way. You're going to find your voice, build your thought leadership. So if you can find posts by other people who are talking about similar topics, kind of ease into it, comment, see what the reactions are, see if there's some healthy debate. I think that can also be kind of like wading into the pool a little bit and seeing how others respond, and see how you feel talking about that content in a more public way, but it's a little bit less public than, I'm making the full post on my own.

[00:52:41] Lorraine: Yes. So the book is sold anywhere that you can find books. So Amazon, Barnes & Noble, maybe even Penn Station, I think you might be able to find me there. Yes. So I would love to connect with all of you. Also building up my Instagram account. We'll take any design feedback from all of you here. And oh, and then lorrainaklee.com/career will give you some additional free resources that you can check out.

[00:53:08] Ryan: Thank you. Thank you everyone, this is great.

Nick Gould: inner critical voices

[00:53:38] Nick: It's in the deck. Can you guys hear me? Can you hear me loud and clear and authoritative? Can you hear every word I'm saying? All right, good. What's that? Excellent.

[00:53:50] Nick: So I think this is a really good connection, I hope. But I'm going to talk about building on some of the things that Lorraine mentioned. We're going to go a little deeper here, guys, so I hope that's okay. I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me to talk about something that's really near and dear to my heart, which is the subject of presence. And we've already started to talk about that. We're going to go, like I said, a little deeper. So specifically, how inner critical voices or impostor voices can really sap your attention and erode your confidence, and to give you hopefully a couple of tools to work against that as you're trying to build your presence. There will be a tiny amount of audience participation, so get yourself ready for that.

[00:54:38] Nick: So first, a little bit about me. I've been fortunate to have a pretty long and diverse, which is another way of saying kind of twisty turny unpredictable, career in technology, mostly as a founder, product leader, corporate executive. This has given me lots of opportunities, as you can imagine, to confront challenges of inner critical voices, both in myself and in the people I worked with or I've managed. So that's why it's a topic that I've been thinking about for a really long time.

[00:55:06] Nick: I also want to mention, it's just sort of relevant to the UXDX mission, that I was president for a couple of years of the IxDA, and I see some IxDA folks here, some friends. Yeah, long may it reign. And so I really appreciate that we're still out here doing this as a community, because it's an essential thing to keep these professionals together and talking to each other.

[00:55:29] Nick: So today I'm a full-time executive coach, and I was trained in a framework called the co-active framework, which is a specific methodology around coaching, and I've also completed coach certification with the International Coaching Federation. So I'm out there doing it, guys. And in my practice as a coach, one of the things I specialize in is helping people achieve their goals by managing and overcoming self-doubt challenges.

The eye contact experiment

[00:56:03] Nick: So let's start with a question. Who here sometimes hears voices in their head? Okay, that's a lot. That's almost everybody. Good. Well, it so happens that about 96% of adults report having an ongoing inner dialogue. So this is a very, very common experience. Virtually all of us experience some form of inner voice. Sometimes it's multiple voices, an actual dialogue, like two voices fighting, like this image of the angel and the devil on the shoulder. That's a common trope.

[00:56:35] Nick: But just for fun, I know you all said that you have this experience, but just for fun, let's see if we can turn these voices on right here, and then pay attention to what it's like when they intrude. Okay? So turn to someone next to you and look them straight in the eye and hold that eye contact for 20 seconds. I'm going to count in my head.

[00:57:21] Nick: Okay. That's 20 seconds. It took us a minute to get rolling there, but you get the idea. See, now I've lost the audience. It's all off the rails now. Thank you.

[00:57:36] Nick: But actually it proves the point. It proves the point really well, because even before you got to the moment where you had somebody and you were looking in their eyes, you were kind of like, huh, am I going to do this right? Oh no, I've got to find you, I've got to find, well, no, it's not really happening. But then I think if some of you were able to get to that point where you were just sort of quietly looking at someone else in that moment, this like, am I being judged? Did I wear the right thing? I should have fixed my hair. Or maybe you're judging. Maybe you're thinking, wow, this guy, why is he looking at me that way? That's really weird.

[00:58:09] Nick: And so the point is that that's the inner voice at work. And in this little experiment, what's going on is it's being activated essentially by something that it perceives to be risky in some way. It's embarrassing and I'm ashamed, whatever. Obviously not that high stakes, but it's just an example. So as you can imagine, the work required to deal with that voice while it's happening takes a lot of energy away. What if you were trying to get to know this person? What if you were interviewing with them? What if you're interviewing them? All kinds of scenarios. You're trying to relate, you're trying to be there, but this voice is bothering you and it's stealing your energy. So that's really what we're dealing with here. And there are a lot of moments where it's very important for you to be present. You can't really afford to have that distraction.

What we mean by presence

[00:58:55] Nick: So what do we actually mean when we say presence? It's kind of like a woo-woo word in a way. I mean, certainly what Lorraine was talking about is a very important and very tactical part of presence, like how do you present to others. Presence in the way that I'm talking about is maybe a little softer, a little more abstract, a little more internal. But it's an incredibly powerful foundation for leadership and impact in general, for relating to other people successfully.

[00:59:20] Nick: You might not use the word presence that routinely, but I'm pretty sure that you've noticed it in someone else. When you're with someone who's present, you don't know what name to put on it exactly, but you can just tell that they're really paying attention, they're really listening and they really seem to care about the interaction with you or what's going on in the room. The quality of the connection with others, it means being there in a way that other people notice. And once you've established that foundation, there's all kinds of stuff you can do after that.

[00:59:52] Nick: So presence is communicated, as Lorraine was talking about, through all kinds of habits and practices: language, body language, etc. But it's also about being grounded and focused internally. I sort of feel like you almost can't get to any of that unless you're still in yourself and you can quiet those voices. So in that sense, the greatest threat to your ability to be present is anything that harms that focus, like noisy voices inside.

[01:00:20] Nick: Here's an example of how you can tell when presence really slips. So in my coaching practice I coach a lot of senior leaders who are interviewing for new jobs, sometimes very high stakes, very senior roles, and we run interview practice. Tell your story, answer a question you anticipate, etc. And the curse of remote work is that your whole face is right there in that screen. So if you're looking somewhere else, the nuances of your facial expressions are very obvious, especially if it's one-on-one. And so you can see it in real time.

[01:00:54] Nick: They'll start out kind of answering a question smoothly. They're engaged, they're confident. And then all of a sudden they look down. They look to the side. And you can almost see that there's an inner voice that just perked up and said, oh, you don't have a good answer for this. Or, yeah, they're not really buying that you're qualified. Even in practice, this can show up. And it's a great opportunity for coaching, of course, because I can say, oh, that thing that you did right now, just don't do that, because it severs that connection with the other person. In that instant, their attention shifts from what's going on in the conversation into themselves. And it's a clear illustration of how presence can be hijacked by those voices.

[01:01:34] Nick: A coaching client of mine once described this as a running commentary in their head. So you're trying to pay attention in the room, but there's this other thing inside you that's observing, judging, worrying. And for some reason these voices, they seem to never be positive and supportive. They're always critical. They say things like, you don't belong, they think your ideas aren't good, you're not safe here.

[01:01:58] Nick: And so impostor syndrome, which is a word that we throw around a lot and a lot of us feel like we have it, at least in my definition of it, is the state of being especially susceptible to those voices. Like they're very loud, or you tend to pay attention to them, you're distracted or diminished by them. Particularly voices that question your credibility, your suitability, your experience, etc. So that can be incredibly distracting, and it pulls you away from being present in the moment and into a kind of argument or negotiation with those voices, which is a little crazy.

Where the voices come from

[01:02:34] Nick: So let's think about where these voices actually come from. Why are they here in the first place? I think it's fairly common sense, and it helps to understand the origins. There are very, very deep roots, which is why they're so powerful. And there are three sources that really shape them and really are the origin of the voices: survival instincts, social structures and community and communication, and individual experiences that we each have. These three sources kind of conspire to scan the environment for danger. That's what they've been taught to do.

[01:03:05] Nick: So starting with survival, this is basic natural selection. Thousands of years ago, if you heard a rustle in the bushes, it could very well be a predator that's going to jump out and kill you. And so the guy who was like, oh, what was that rustle, I better get out of here, ran away and survived to pass their DNA on. And maybe we have a little bit of that guy's DNA still. Whereas the one who failed to notice and just said, yeah, it's probably nothing, got eaten most likely and did not pass their DNA on. And so over time we've learned as a species that being a little alert to danger signals will keep us alive. And the same instinct gets activated today, even though I think I would argue that the danger is not quite as severe as it was back then.

[01:03:51] Nick: And then once we started living in groups, in communities, the notion of survival kind of shifted. We needed to rely on each other intensely for our own survival, and if we were going to survive and thrive, we needed to be accepted and continue to belong in a community. And so the idea of being rejected or excluded from a community is just as scary as being eaten by a saber-tooth tiger. And so what we learned is to pick up interpersonal cues, context, pay close attention to facial expressions, body language, how people are relating to us, as potential signs that we might not be safe. And the people who were better at doing that again survived, passed on their DNA, and here we are today.

[01:04:40] Nick: And then a little bit more personal. Each of us has our own experience, and in our upbringing we kind of bring our own new voices. There are characters that we encounter that have incredible influence over us, and that influence gets cemented in our memory. Parents, teachers, early bosses, they want to help us and guide us, but they do that sometimes a little forcefully, or maybe from a place of anxiety. And so those pressures get internalized as new voices, and they echo with that authority that that person had for us.

[01:05:12] Nick: I'm sure you all have experienced this, where there's this feeling that you have that's just connected to something your first boss always said, or a teacher said to you, you're no good at whatever. Probably not true anymore, but you still hear that. And so those voices kind of bolt on to the survival ones and the community ones. They form a great trifecta of concerned voices trying to keep us safe.

[01:05:36] Nick: So understanding these origins, it's easier to see how these voices work. It's important to recognize that they mean well. This is not like a gremlin, a demon trying to hurt you and disrupt you. They're trying to protect you, but just from something that is maybe not actually really there anymore. And so because the stakes feel really high, they feel incredibly urgent and they feel like the truth. And that's because, evolutionarily speaking, they are designed to be believed. If you don't believe them, then you don't listen to them and you don't survive. And so that's how they've been coded inside of you. Otherwise we wouldn't have this problem in the first place, we wouldn't even be talking about it. But because they're innate or learned responses to dangers that don't really exist anymore, their warnings are not accurate. That's something we have to keep in mind.

[01:06:22] Nick: As I said, all of this inner debate has a cost. Your attention is being spent on evaluating or addressing perceived dangers. So you might not be fully present and alert to what's happening in the room, and you pay attention to the wrong things. Even worse, you might show up as irritated, distracted, anxious, because you're sitting there churning about this issue and you're not really paying attention. You seem annoyed, people might recognize that, or you're guarded.

The hustler

[01:06:54] Nick: So, a little personal vulnerability now. I want to introduce you to my most powerful and disruptive inner voice, who I've named the hustler. We'll get back to the naming piece. The hustler believes that all other people are rooting for me to fail, or that they want to undermine me in some way for their own purposes and their own goals. He says, that guy wants your job. You're threatening him. They're testing you. They're waiting for you to slip. And he wants me to pay the most attention to how I can strategize or scheme to compete or conquer other people, because that's what they want to do to me. There were times when the hustler's voice dominated my attention and it made it really difficult for me to lead and show up the way I wanted to, until I recognized it and started to deal with it and I learned to use some of the tools that I'm going to mention right now.

[01:07:46] Nick: So how can you calm the voices? You know they're ancient. You now know they're automatic and very, very human. First of all, don't beat yourself up. Don't criticize yourself, make it worse for feeling these impostor feelings. Remember that this is your instinct for self-preservation. This is you being strong. It's your strength in action, so celebrate that. But the next step is to make sure that those voices don't distract you and stop you from showing up the way you want to, so that you can reclaim the presence that you really want to embody.

[01:08:15] Nick: There's a lot you can do to manage the inner voices. You do not need to be at their mercy, absolutely. And by the way, the first step is recognition and acknowledgement that these voices exist and what they are, what they're trying to do. So you've already taken the first step by being here and listening to this talk. And now there are additional tools that you can use when that inner voice gets really loud. Name it, reason with it, interrupt it, and don't help it.

Name it, reason with it, interrupt it, don't help it

[01:08:41] Nick: So first, naming the voice. Giving your inner voice a name or a character is a really powerful shift. Sounds a little silly, the hustler. Who does your voice sound like? Maybe it's a family member or some fictional character or a cartoon villain. You can be whimsical about it. Pick someone who's like a shorthand, like just saying their name and you know instantly what they represent: the attitude, the concerns, the anxieties. The act of naming the voice externalizes it and separates it from the you that wants to be present and that's trying to determine what to pay attention to. And when you make that space, you can notice it and you don't have to obey it. So that separation is the first step. Name it. Start thinking about what name you want to give your critical inner voice.

[01:09:25] Nick: You can also reason with the voice. It is not all powerful or all knowing. You can question the truth of what it's telling you. So the voices sound very certain. Remember that they're designed to be believed. That's their specialty. But you can pause and ask for evidence. You can look at what's really true about the situation versus what you're afraid might be true, or what your voice is telling you might be true. And most of the time, you'll have to take my word for it, but it's really true, most of the time you find that you're more prepared, more capable, more supported and in a better position than you thought, or than the voice wants you to think. And even if not, that the consequences are rarely as dire and serious as the severity of the voice would have you believe. So get into that debate if you can.

[01:10:10] Nick: If the critic is intruding in the middle of your work, like if it came in right now, as I'm standing in front of you, I can't afford to be like, well, hang on, no, I know some people out there, they're friends, they'll be good though, they're nice, they're not judging me. And you don't have time to debate. You can just shut it up. And what I like to do is use this, not now. And I say this out loud. Not now. I push it away. Not now, I will deal with you later. So it's almost like you're talking to another being, another person who's hassling you when you're trying to do something.

[01:10:44] Nick: Now, I like not now. You can use whatever words you want, and by the way, profanity is allowed. Whatever feels like a strong way of pushing that voice away. If you can say it out loud, I think that really helps. If you can use your body, I think that helps even more. You might need to step out of a meeting and go into the hall and do that.

[01:11:06] Nick: If that's not possible, and it might not be possible in a lot of situations, what I suggest is just kind of bring your attention to your breath. Take three quiet breaths. And you can even just mouth the words to yourself. Just bring your attention somewhere else. Make space that crowds out that voice.

[01:11:28] Nick: And finally, and actually Lorraine made, I think, some great suggestions about this: don't do the voice's work for it. And what I mean by that is you might be used to the critical message, and so you've internalized it, and unintentionally you echo it in your own speech patterns. And this is something that you might need someone else to tell you that you're doing, notice for you and point it out. But you might say things like, ah, this might be a dumb idea, I don't know. Or, I just got here, I don't really know, I know I'm new. Or, I'm not an expert. All of that kind of diminishing language.

[01:12:02] Nick: One coaching client of mine says they struggle with always saying just. Well, I was just asking, I was just thinking, I just wanted to know, I'm just telling you. And you can see how that instantly makes the speaker smaller. So don't do that. You don't have to do it. Give yourself permission starting tonight to stop doing that. You're not doing anybody any favors and you're only hurting yourself. You're feeding that voice. So catch yourself and replace the words with things like, here's my idea, or, my perspective is this, I think we should do this. And you don't have to be a jerk about it, but just remove that diminishing instinct. And that way you're not cooperating with the critic. You're not making their job easier. And you can see yourself and hear yourself being stronger, and that makes the voices weaker.

Building the muscle

[01:12:56] Nick: So the best news of all, to that last point, is that the more you use these tools, the more you move your attention away from what the voices are telling you, the more presence you'll naturally develop. And then reinforcing your presence creates evidence that the critic cannot deny.

[01:13:15] Nick: So being present, you can see more clearly that your voice and your ideas are being received and supported. People are nodding, they're laughing, they're writing stuff down when you talk, whatever the case may be. You feel more solid and confident. And this weakens the voices and makes them less persuasive. They may pop up and you're like, no, no, that's not happening right now. So like so many powerful habits, the more you build your own presence, the better you can resist the pull of negative thinking in the first place. So you're building a muscle.

[01:13:46] Nick: All right. So what I hope you take away from this, and we went a little deep, is a few things. Inner voices are powerful, old and distracting, but totally normal and very, very human. No matter how confident or smart or right they seem, they are not all knowing, and they don't tell the complete truth. All inner voices know is what they're afraid of. And you can diminish their impact and reclaim your sense of presence, and presence is the beginning of great leadership. So thank you very much. Here's my stuff. Definitely connect with me. A pleasure.

Q&A with Nick

[01:14:41] Audience: So you were saying that oftentimes people make a face when they're in interviews or whatever. I know when I'm having interviews and somebody asks me a question, oftentimes I'll have to think about it and I'll do what I call my math face. And I'll look up for a sec and be like, okay, this was a question. And then I will come up with an answer. Would that be one of those? Would somebody perceive that as an inner voice distraction?

[01:15:08] Nick: Yeah. I mean, I think potentially they would. Because, well, so let's just do it. So you just ask me a question. Ask me a question. What's the weather like today? Just ask me that.

[01:15:15] Audience: What's your favorite color of tree?

[01:15:22] Nick: So now in this case, it doesn't really matter what my favorite colour of tree is, so you don't mind if I think about it for a minute. But in an interview scenario, if I'm evaluating whether you actually have an accurate and confident answer to the thing I just asked you, that little moment of hesitation, look, you don't lose the job because of it, but I register it as an uncertainty. And maybe it's something I come back to and poke on a little bit more later in the conversation. Nobody's perfect. So you're going to do this, but one thing that you can do instead of that is just practice not moving your face.

[01:15:57] Nick: Well, if it's hard, so the eye contact exercise is like on purpose. Even in an interview, when I'm staring at you, the reason why we do this, I looked this up once scientifically. The reason why we do that look away thing is literally that we're trying to preserve or reclaim cognitive energy to answer the question. And it takes energy for me to look at you. So if I'm looking at you, I have to look away to be like, okay, let me start the engine about what this answer is. So it's just a habit. And if you can look not at the person, but maybe at their name or at the corner of the window or something, you don't pull your energy out in the same way as if you're looking right at them. So that's just a thing you practice. You get better at it.

[01:16:41] Audience: How do neurodivergent people fit into all of this? Because a lot of times when neurodivergent people speak they're often looking up at their thoughts and envisioning them, and it's also very hard for some neurodivergent people to read body language. And so how does all this play into that as well?

[01:17:03] Nick: Well, I should say first of all that I am not an expert in neurodivergence generally speaking. But what I would say is that, like so many other things in life, that's going to be harder for them than it would be for people who are neurotypical. So if I were talking to a friend who was asking me this question, I would say you just need to work a little bit harder on it. It's something you need to practice, for better or for worse. These are the sort of rules of engagement out there, and there are small things that you can put into your own framework and your own way of thinking. And even if it's something like don't look in the eyes but look in the corner. So through coaching, through practice, it's a person-to-person question, but it's definitely a challenge. Yeah, I think, thank you for pointing that out.

[01:17:51] Audience: Are we allowed to ask you questions about your journey?

[01:17:54] Nick: Sure.

[01:17:55] Audience: All right. So, I mean, you and I know each other, but you have definitely a long time spent doing UX things. How do you think that particular background, because it wasn't a background in marketing, wasn't a background in MBA leadership, blah blah blah, that traditional stuff, how do you think that made you a better coach, or a different kind of coach, than your peers?

[01:18:19] Nick: So the experiences that I've had and the teams that I've led and things that I've done professionally in my career of course gave me lots of opportunities to relate in different challenges, different contexts, with lots of different types of people. So that was the sort of playing field that I had access to, which was great. But the way I would answer your question actually is, what makes me better at this stuff is that I suffer from that stuff badly, and I always have.

[01:18:52] Nick: And so as I got more and more advanced in my career, got more coaching, thought more about it and did work on myself, I started to see what was really going on inside. And it made me uncomfortable. Like I wasn't happy at times when I should have been happier, leading people or growing a company, whatever the case may be, because I was so burdened by these voices and these uncertainties. And so becoming a coach, and this is probably a different talk, but becoming a coach was really an outgrowth of a personal journey to really try to figure out how to make myself feel more myself, happier. So that's where I would locate those sources. Thank you for asking.

[01:19:36] Audience: How do you think about power dynamics with regard to your recommendation around diminishing language? I've found that as a leader in the past, and particularly dependent on company cultures, if I assert a perspective, too often sometimes people just fall in line, and that's not what I want. And so sometimes I will need to say things like, oh, I've got a crazy idea, I need you to push back on it, to try to elicit participation. And I know that's a bit different if you're in not a position of authority.

[01:20:11] Nick: Yeah. I think that what you just said is a great example. I have a crazy idea, I want you to push back on it. That's actually a very leaderly thing to say, because to even say that, you're standing in a place of authority and presence. You're saying, hey, it's crazy, but you guys are going to help me with this, right? So I didn't hear that as self-diminishing. And in fact, I would say as a leader it's just as important for you to not use that self-diminishing, make yourself smaller language, because people really rely on you for some stability and solidity.

[01:20:45] Nick: And so I would say that there's a whole other challenge for leaders in that respect, in that they sometimes have to project confidence about things that they themselves may not actually be confident about. Oh, the company's going in the right direction, this product is going to really be great, and maybe not. So that's a different kind of challenge. But yeah, no, it's a great question.

[01:21:15] Audience: I have a project with my team. I'm not a leader of the team, I'm just part of the team. And we have a project where we have to build a product for higher-ups, for leadership. It's a dashboard. So we speak to this type of people, this level, and I was looking for advice and I would like to ask your advice. How can I learn this language better to communicate to leaders, to remove the clutter, to speak better and not waste their time and my team's time?

[01:22:02] Audience: And I see in our team that when they read emails from one particular executive, they see a lot of words, they see this leader as if he's diminishing their skills, but it's not really true. What I see is that the person is trying to teach the team how to do things better, but maybe the language is not right. So without pushing back, what would you suggest? How to talk to this type of people?

[01:22:41] Nick: You want to talk to the people who feel diminished by the language that the leader is using.

[01:22:45] Audience: Yes. I want to support the morale of the team, and I see that this person is right, but the way they communicate is not always right. So without pushing on their ego, because they're the leaders, and without diminishing the team's morale, how can we?

[01:23:06] Nick: So let's try, this is a little bit complicated, but let's try to put it maybe in the context of some of the frameworks that I talked about. What it sounds like is that what's really going on is that you believe that the point that this leader is making is a valid point. Okay, so you think they're kind of right in the feedback that they're giving, but there's something about the way the message is delivered that is landing poorly for the team.

[01:23:37] Nick: Okay, so the question for the team is, okay, let's assume that this feedback is actually valuable, good feedback. What is it about the way that they're delivering this message that's hurting? And why is that what you're centering on, and you're not able to get through that into the actual substantive question of whether this is good and valid feedback? That's inner critical voices at work. Like, no, first of all, no one likes to be talked down to or demeaned, of course, and there may be an HR issue there that you have to grapple with. But if someone is just a little brusque, or they're kind of very direct, or maybe they use a little language now and then that seems curt, the message is like, you and your team need to figure out how to not be so brought down by that. How to be able to focus on the content of the message, not necessarily the format or the style. And ask yourself, why does this activate that scared, worried voice? Reassure them that the thing that that voice of yours is afraid of is not happening. So you need to kind of make up for that in a way. So that's off the top of my head. That's how I would handle it.

[01:24:51] Nick: Oh, one more. Okay, it's a good one. They're all good ones.

[01:25:21] Nick: So here I would invoke the, you can reason with the voice question, because if you're really talking about a situation in which there's a layoff but it has nothing to do with you personally, it was just the company shrank or whatever, they made some dumb decision and took out 30% of the workforce, that has nothing to do with you. But of course you feel it so personally, and I've worked with lots of people who are in this position.

[01:25:45] Nick: So it just takes a little work. You've got to look at the evidence. What's really going on here? Was this something that I did wrong? Well, this person over here who also got laid off, they're awesome. So if they're awesome and they got laid off, then maybe I'm awesome too, and this is not about that. And it doesn't happen overnight. It takes a little reassurance.

[01:26:02] Nick: And there are other tactics also. Like as you start to turn the ship and move in the new direction, whatever that ends up being for you, pay a lot of attention to where new evidence emerges. Oh wow, that person thinks I'm really good. I had a great conversation with them. I got a second interview here. So highlight all of those positive signals saying, maybe that bad feeling I had about things before is not actually correct. And then over time and distance, hopefully those voices start to quiet down.

[01:26:34] Nick: I would say the same thing. I mean, pivoting is a little bit like, I don't really deserve to be doing this new thing because I really am good at that. It's like, all right, well, why not you? You went and got a certification. You've learned, you have some experience. You have to be reasonable. You're not going to say, I'm going to jump into a VP role in this new thing that I've never done. Obviously that doesn't make sense. But saying, I can go and represent myself as having the skills and the strengths and the qualities that match this job? Sure you can. Why not? And so again, it's good with conversation, a coach or a friend or a buddy or something, to say, let's look at this for real with clear eyes, and then you just build up a better story.

[01:27:16] Ryan: Yeah. Nick will be around, so thank you.

Panel: leading through the shift

[01:28:32] Cindy: Hello. Oh, there we go. All right. Hope some folks are out there streaming as well. So yeah, welcome to the panel, leading through the shift. With me, we have:

[01:28:45] Christina: Hi, I'm Christina Goldschmidt. I'm the VP of product design at Warner Music Group and also an adjunct professor at NYU's Stern School of Business.

[01:28:56] Chris: And I'm Chris Hamilton. I work for JP Morgan Chase. My opinions are my own and I'm not here representing the firm. Had to say that. I head up a product design team for our self-directed investing business. We essentially help customers invest with confidence. Chase.com, Chase mobile app.

[01:29:17] Cindy: All right, so here we go. Leading through the shift. Now, as you all are very, very aware, the last 18 months or so have introduced cataclysmic changes thanks to AI. You've also seen massive shifts that moved us away from those heady post-pandemic days when there was a veritable gold rush for talent across the board, right?

[01:29:48] Cindy: And yeah, business cycles happen all the time. We've experienced them, we've lived through them. But who would have ever expected that this one would happen so strongly and with such speed? It kind of has our heads spinning a little bit, and I see some nods. But let me ask you really quickly, how many of you here sit within a design function? How many of you sit within a product function? Okay, a few. And tech, engineering. Okay, so we got a little bit of a mix.

[01:30:20] Cindy: So what we want to do is we want to talk about some of the changes. So for example, organizations become much leaner. They've also become flatter. Think about the market reality with hiring. We've already talked about layoffs. The hiring times are longer. How many of you experienced the recruiters where ghosting is the norm rather than the exception? Oh, lots of nods there. And then there's just a lot of change around AI reworking and redesigning our workflows.

[01:31:00] Cindy: So what we want to think about is not how this is really depressing, because it seems very depressing, but I think there's an opportunity. Whenever there is change there's also an opportunity. So hopefully we can hit both sides of the coin in this conversation. So we're going to talk a little bit about leading through the shift, how to grow and adapt, as well as the skills that we've seen that are most required. All right. So are you guys ready?

[01:31:29] Cindy: All right. So let's start with a little bit of a warm-up pulse check. If you had to describe what work or leadership feels like right now in one word or phrase, what would it be?

[01:31:50] Audience: Changing rapidly.

[01:31:56] Audience: Adaptive acceleration.

[01:32:03] Audience: I kind of think it's exciting. Call me crazy.

How roles have changed

[01:32:10] Cindy: All right. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about leading through the shift. So according to Nielsen Norman Group, for example, they say that leadership expectations have shifted from evangelizing around design to continuing to prove business impact continuously. Okay, now that's one example of a change. But I'm wondering, for you guys, what are the expectations that you've seen? Not necessarily because someone else has said this is what they're expecting to see, but because of your own expectations of yourself and how you've needed to adapt. So my first question is, how has your role changed in the last 18 months?

[01:33:03] Chris: 18 months, or?

[01:33:05] Cindy: Whatever time frame. Two months, three years.

[01:33:14] Chris: I think over the last few years some things have shifted, right? Like I heard some of you could talk about already, teams are leaner, flatter, maybe not hiring, or maybe hiring elsewhere, not around here, not these zip codes on this island, for example. But I still think a lot of things haven't changed. I think you mentioned this idea of showing value and impact. That's been a consistent thread for my team for a long time, is how do we add value? How do we understand the business? How do we tell those impact stories?

[01:33:56] Christina: About two years ago I joined Warner and my job was to actually grow that team, and recently we did have layoffs. And so now I sort of think about myself as recasting the team and actually helping the team to train themselves for what the future is in our new reality within our jobs, but also to future proof themselves no matter what, so if they are either at our company or at a future company. So whatever I can do to inspire them to learn and to grow, more so than I've actually ever done in any other place that I've ever worked.

[01:34:37] Cindy: Yeah, I like that. The sort of casting director coach. Translator, yeah.

[01:34:49] Chris: Yeah, I would only add a couple of things, and agree with that. With so many org changes, I think, we had like three org changes in the space of two years, and there was a need to sort of translate, or be the org translator, in those respects, because you kind of experience, as a team person, the knock-on effects of changing leadership intentions or stalled projects without really knowing why. And just trying to help ground people and provide a sense of security around what's happening and the reasons behind it, because usually there's a really good intent but it just doesn't feel very great.

The opportunities in a strange time

[01:35:28] Cindy: Yeah, cool. So what about, let's take a positive take on this theme. What do you think? What opportunities do you see as a leader that have emerged out of this strange time?

[01:35:47] Chris: Great question. No, go ahead.

[01:35:49] Christina: I think that it also creates the vacuum for anyone who wants to step up. There's sort of a convergence of roles. It almost feels like it's 1996 again, where everyone can do everything. And so that means that anyone can actually lead strategy. Anyone can show what we mean. And the phrase, a picture is worth a thousand words? Well, a clickable working vibe-coded demo is worth a million words. So that I think allows people on my team, or engineers, to actually say, this is what we are thinking, and to translate that to the business, to basically bridge the communication gap and to make sure that everyone's on the same page so that we can all move forward together.

[01:36:43] Cindy: Yeah, I love that. It's kind of like a license for a new kind of creativity, no matter what your role is. You have an opportunity to invent, to rethink things, and that can be pretty exciting. What about you?

[01:36:59] Chris: I agree. I think it's super exciting and kind of scary at the same time. Like you see some people adopt these new tools faster than others. One of the things I encourage my team to do, similar to Christina, is try to be out ahead. Try to be at the tip of the spear of what everybody else is doing, so you can kind of wrap your arms around it, because that's what everybody's doing.

[01:37:22] Chris: Learn the tools, figure out how to find ways to reduce manual effort that you might have today in your workflows. And I imagine there's a lot of different opportunities out there to find ways just to tackle problems faster than you are now. Bring things to your team and to your partners before they become issues or escalations. And show how powerful these tools can be. Learn out in front, with people, so they can see how you're adopting them too.

[01:37:59] Chris: As much as I say this with my team, I still see some team members not adopting them as much as others. I think it's partially because we also have things that we're already very focused on and very busy with, and sometimes it's hard to find the space to do that and carve out the space. And one of the things we've done intentionally is give teams a space to do these things as part of their normal workflows and part of their normal sprint activities, so that they're not going to get dinged in their velocity if they experiment and they try. And we want people to figure out what's not working well and make mistakes, so we can figure out how to push through that.

[01:38:41] Cindy: Yep, love it. I also see opportunities in thinking beyond even one's org, which I find really interesting, because efficiencies are a big thing now. How do we reduce costs? Well, it's not just within a team, often it's within an entire organization. And so we found ourselves thinking about, how do you improve the operating model across the board, where you bring a little bit of design creativity into that and help drive change there. And so that's also, I think, another opportunity, of sort of extending value into new places.

Mindsets that separate growing from stuck

[01:39:23] Cindy: So let's talk a little bit about growing and adapting as a team member. Yep, there's a lot of changes and expectations when it comes to leadership. When it comes to a team member who's experienced this on the day-to-day, chaos, new tools, all of that, what are the kinds of things that are going to be most helpful during this time? So my question to you is, from your perspective, what kind of mindsets and/or behaviours separate the people who keep growing from those that are feeling stuck?

[01:40:14] Chris: One of the things I try to always get my team focused on is driving outcomes, aligning with whatever those business metrics are that you're trying to drive. Figure out how to drive those. Don't just push pixels. Again, learn the business. And it helps to at least be able to have, if you're fortunate enough to have a clear strategy and vision to align to, that really helps. If you don't have that, at least hopefully there's a purpose that you have with your team that keeps you guys focused when there's a lot of other ambiguity around you.

[01:40:57] Christina: Yeah, totally. I think having a learning mindset, so being open to ideas from anywhere, and improving your craft, whatever that is. But also thinking about innovation and strategy as primary tools that are always going to be things that we as humans produce and not necessarily AI produces. So it's kind of like a dirty word in design circles, but I teach design thinking, and the word is not in vogue anymore, but the methods are still solid. And if you can teach people how to use the evolutions of their brains to come up with completely novel ideas that are not necessarily grounded in anything in the past, AI can't do that the way that a human can. And you can bring those novel ideas to solve business problems, to drive outcomes, to solve customer problems.

[01:42:03] Cindy: Yeah. I've experienced that tension around design thinking. It's a double-edged sword, but mostly a good one. Innovate.

[01:42:12] Cindy: What I would add is this idea of empathy. Speaking of design thinking, and I think now more than ever, having empathy for your partners, the people you work with, understanding what they're feeling, because, connecting the dots here, we all have our inner voices, and change can be scary and uncomfortable. And if you start to think about what your partner in another discipline might be experiencing, I think that just leads to better collaboration and better relationships. And then the other thing I would add is, I think in this moment a behaviour is, be proactive rather than sort of slouching and holding back. Find ways to step up and have the confidence to do that. And I think that would serve anyone well.

Skills that help people stand out

[01:43:20] Cindy: All right. So let's get to the nuts and bolts of this. Now, we talked about mindsets and behaviours, but what about skills? What are you seeing in terms of the kinds of skills or aspects that help get people hired, that help them stand out, particularly at a time like this?

[01:43:50] Christina: Being able to solve complex problems, and being able to talk to it and to explain your methodology for doing so in a repeatable fashion. So practising those behavioural interviewing skills, if you are actually out there going for a job, to say, this is how I solved it and this is how I approach it. And then also I think zero to one type experiences, and also one to two, are really helpful right now.

[01:44:24] Christina: One of the things that was really interesting for me when I was hiring at Warner, not right now, but a little while ago, was it was very difficult to find people who could actually invent a design system from scratch, who could think about completely new softwares and systems from scratch, or didn't need all of those operational crutches in order to help them be great designers. And so I think going back to not just owning a component of an experience, but a holistic experience.

[01:45:05] Cindy: Yeah, that holistic experience piece I think is really becoming increasingly more important. Not only because of the complexity of everything and the connectivity, but having that end-to-end thinking, holistic view. I would actually, just to pick up on what you're saying, I think it's a really important skill and focus, being able to think of that regardless of, honestly, your function. When you think of a service design lens and connecting not just the experience but the people, the process, the technology, all the things that are interconnected that sit beneath that, I think is only becoming increasingly more important.

[01:45:51] Chris: Oh, true. Yeah, complex thinking there. Yes, that was very well put. Yeah, the systems thinking there is still really important. There's a lot of things that I think are always going to be important. It's always going to be important to build good relationships with your partners, to understand their perspectives, to understand their business. That's how you win trust. That's never going to change. Doing great work so you can build these partnerships and earn that trust, that's never going to change. So we've always looked for people that can do the job, that are also nice, that can build good relationships with people.

[01:46:34] Chris: But yeah, more and more it's becoming about these new fangled AI tools and how you can apply them. So we look for people that are inspired to try new things and are not afraid to run at these tools instead of run away from these tools. And I think that's a mindset. That's something that not everybody's up for all the time. This industry moves super fast. I think that's always been true, it's always been changing, that's how technology evolves. And so there are less fast-paced industries, if that's not sort of the mindset and the skill set that feels right for you. You could work for the post office, for example. Maybe it's a little less fast-paced. I don't know, maybe it is getting more fast-paced with AI. See, there's always more mail to deliver.

[01:47:38] Chris: But also we look for people that have ways that they've demonstrated value and impact. And again, not just pushing pixels, like how have they moved a metric, is a really important thing that we look for. We also look for people that are multifaceted, people that can speak engineering or have some experience with engineering, not just a design background. It's always great when someone can speak research, code and design all at the same time, and product, and talk about outcomes.

[01:48:11] Christina: Yes, so did I. I think someone who can ask questions like, why are we doing this? What's the reason that we want to do this? What's it trying to solve? And I think that that's regardless of what role you're in on a project. Because if everyone understands that, not just, this is my OKR and this is the goal I'm trying to achieve, but the real fundamental reason why, and always making sure that everyone understands that at a basic level, and translating it, as you were saying earlier, that really helps people understand the core of how to solve a problem, and maybe how to simplify that problem, if you can ask those fundamental questions.

[01:48:56] Cindy: Yeah, I love that. That why behind it is so key. Going back to this increasing pressure around showing impact, it's not only establishing the right metrics, that's the starting place, but what I have spoken to a lot of people about is the gap in business acumen across the board. And I think it's really important that, it doesn't mean that you have to go off and get your late night executive MBA. Some people have done that, I encourage it. But that you know enough to understand how the business operates, how it makes money, and what the work you're doing is contributing to. And also not see that as somehow stripping you of your craft or your creativity or whatever else. Those two things can coexist in a single person.

[01:49:53] Christina: Absolutely.

[01:49:55] Chris: 100%. That is key. Because you got hired for some reason, right? And presumably it's to help grow a business or help people in some way. If that's why you're there, yeah, make that happen.

What we're hopeful for

[01:50:16] Cindy: All right. So I assume you all have a list now of what you're going to be doing after this. No. Well listen, before we wrap up and open it up to questions, I have one more question for you two. With all this stuff that's going on, what are you hopeful for?

[01:50:37] Chris: All right. I feel like designers are super well equipped for the future in this case. So I think it's not just designers: data people, engineering people, product people, researchers. It's really anybody's ball game. If you can wrap your arms around these tools and think about what kind of outcomes you're trying to drive, or how you're trying to help people, it's an exciting time to be in this space. There's a quote, relatedly, see if I can remember it. The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any. So just get out there and do this.

[01:51:30] Christina: I love that. But I think what I'm most hopeful for is actually the rise of truly delightful and differentiated experiences and products. I think if we can do things faster, if we understand what common patterns are and AI can help us make that, that we can now invest more in the surprise, delight and brand expression. And maybe it's the revenge of the visual designer, I don't know. But I think that we don't have to all have an app that looks the same as somebody else's app, but that we can spend time to drive differentiation, to delight our customers, and to do that in such a way that drives business value.

[01:52:22] Cindy: Yeah, I love that. But that's after going through the trough of really bad stuff, right?

[01:52:27] Christina: Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

[01:52:30] Cindy: Yeah. Well, so I'll add by saying, on the people's side, I'm hoping that this sort of disruption will also have a positive effect on work culture. I think it's so important because roles are blurring, we're having to rethink things, so that coming out of this chaos we'll have better collaborative relationships. That's what I hope for.

[01:53:04] Chris: Me too.

[01:53:05] Cindy: All right. I think that's, now we can open up to some questions. Is it the group question, or the?

[01:53:14] Ryan: All right. Come on, Nick. You can sit right here. Yeah, you could. Sure, why not.

Q&A: tools, incentives and feedback

[01:53:38] Audience: Let's try the mic one more time. Do I need this? I'm good. All right, let me try without. So I have two questions.

[01:54:30] Audience: So that actually goes[?] don't say[?] yes. Yes. And it's just so[?] summarize something. And so as long as[?]

[01:56:56] Chris: I think it's a great time to be experiencing your career.

[01:58:30] Audience: [?] out now. What would you guys suggest? That's one example.

[01:58:37] Christina: Okay. You know, Figma Make is out now, for example. There's so many different tools there. There's so many different flavours of things that you could play with and try, like Devin, GPT, Claude, Cursor, Windsurf.

[01:58:56] Christina: So one of the things that I would suggest, sorry, this is, one of the things that I would suggest is get a buddy. Like don't make it all on your own. Try and get a friend, and you say, I'm going to try this thing and I'm going to show you what I did, and I'm going to try this thing and I'm going to show you what I did. It's just like learning anything. It's better if you do it with a friend, you know, like that way you're not alone. You also can be like, this thing sucked, and have someone to have that experience with. And because it's going to be weird and it's going to be hard, and sometimes we need that human experience when we're just talking to a computer screen. So I would be like, hey, let's go get beers and let's try this out, and make it a little bit more fun than just trying to bang away at it. No, that's what I try and do, at least.

[02:00:02] Cindy: I love that.

[02:00:07] Chris: That's a great point too. And just to add to that, there's so many gimmicky things that you see people doing with these tools, right? But try to find a way to solve a problem that matters, like either to you or to people around you or to your community. Get rid of manual workflows, for example, if you can.

[02:00:32] Audience: Hi everyone, my name is Andreas. First of all, thanks for being here tonight and thanks for sharing all your knowledge. My question is regarding the expectations that companies have, of course, like these days, that their employees will go out there and learn more about AI and start applying these things inside a company. And I'm trying. I just want to hear from you if you have any thoughts on how can companies better evangelize or incentivize their employees to continue on this path, because you know, we have to learn AI on top of everything else that we have to do on our day-to-day job. So yeah, wonder if you have thoughts or ideas. Thank you.

[02:01:22] Nick: I can chime in with one thing which is a little bit responsive to the prior question too. Companies are only going to incentivize or encourage or even really tolerate something that is approximately helping them achieve their goals. So you're going to find a lot of difficulty when you're talking about investing a significant amount of time, particularly away from your core responsibilities, envisioning how some new tool will be used, unless that's strictly your job to do that, which, if it is, you're really lucky.

[02:01:52] Nick: But in terms of where to focus, to the other question too, I think it's very important to be extremely clear about what your goals are. And whether you're talking about an internal mobility of some kind, or what your reputation or what you're known for internally might be, or if you're trying to move into some new space, you have to understand to the best of your ability what is the target state, what is the target position or role, what do you want to look like in terms of your profile and skill set, to have some future that you're envisioning for yourself.

[02:02:24] Nick: And then you have to do a little research. So maybe you need to figure out, oh, the kind of work that I want to do, they all seem to be using this tool. Ask some people, the buddy is a great idea. Join some communities and just throw it in a Slack. What's everybody using these days? But also not like what's cool and interesting and kind of slick, but what is being used internally at companies that seems to really be making a difference? Because I don't know if you all feel this, but I think that it's like a new tool every day, or a new hype about some new feature that's added, and then you go over and check it out and you're like, I don't really see that there. And maybe if I made it my only job to go deep into figuring out how to use this thing I would find some value, but generally speaking there's a lot of sizzle and not that much steak out there still. So you've got to figure out something that's going to really make a difference if you spend the time to learn it.

[02:03:19] Chris: I would also just say, try to understand what's holding them back if you can. Just try to dig deeper and understand the problem a little better. Like why isn't the workplace adopting these tools? Are they just not ready yet? Maybe you can help kind of nudge them into it. Are there other sort of barriers that are keeping them from rolling these out across the company, or letting you guys try and experiment and see if you can streamline your workflows?

[02:03:54] Chris: Just as an example, the head of my company was speaking at a tech conference last week, and this is why I can say this. We've already spent $2 billion on AI internally and it's not new. He also said we've been doing this since 2012 in all kinds of ways, like machine learning, etc. It's not new. The new thing is gen AI and agentic AI. And after $2 billion of investment he said we've already seen $2 billion of savings. So you just got to get out there and not be afraid to move into this space, because it's already changing so many things in so many great ways for our customers. Use them for good. Figure out how to help people. Make jobs more fun. Get rid of those manual processes I talked about, because seriously, those are some of the reasons why we hear anecdotal feedback all the time, I hate my job because of this manual process. And AI can help them. So we can do more fun things at work, do more strategic things at work, more valuable things at work.

[02:05:05] Christina: So just a real quick thing on that. Also understand what they're trying to move and measure. So most likely your company does some kind of employee engagement survey and is trying to move something to that effect. If done right, you can turn learning into engagement programs. And so if you want to volunteer on the committee that's either on the culture club or on the learning club or on whatever club it is that they have deemed is the right club based on their findings, you can help seed this as an idea of group learning, group sharing, group experimentation, as a means by which you can take over one of those already existing programs in order to turn what was previously not an AI learning day into an AI learning day.

[02:06:00] Chris: It's a great idea. And if there is no club, start one. I'm serious. If there's a group internally, mine coming, and it just organically happened, now there's like a meetup monthly globally, people playing with AI tools. It's awesome.

[02:06:16] Audience: So I have another take. I acknowledge the stuff is happening, Claude is not just the name of your brother's old roommate, etc, etc, Gemini is not a program from NASA. But I would think another thing that people with our background can do is sort of look at the parts of the process that still are human led and really nail those. Like the agents will sort of write themselves eventually, but they can't do an immersive experience, they can't do Sleep No More, they can't do the Squid Game experience, etc. And that's still something that we can help with, because it's personas and experiences and wayfinding and all that stuff.

[02:06:58] Audience: So that would be another way to sort of accommodate yourself, which is like, this will happen, I will know enough to be dangerous, but I will double efforts on the stuff that it can't do, because humans still need community. They still need human contact. Covid did a number on all kinds of people. We need to sort of re-knit those networks together. And that's something that UX people can absolutely nail, and that's something that we can maybe decide to double our efforts on and let some of the other stuff be taken up with engineers, but we can really focus on that stuff because it's still squishy.

[02:07:39] Cindy: Anything to? No. All right.

[02:07:43] Audience: I'm not going to ask an AI question. Also, as a former news producer, I love how you're passing around the lav mic. So I have a question first for the panelists and then for Nick to respond to. So, panelists, as you're all senior leaders, how do you give thoughtful feedback to your ICs, and what's the best tactic that you use? And Nick, as probably many of us here are ICs, how do you receive that without your inner voice interpreting it as, I'm a terrible designer, I don't belong here, blah blah blah.

[02:08:40] Audience: Just thoughtful feedback in general, not any particular kind of feedback. It can just be like any type of critical feedback.

[02:08:54] Ryan: Yeah. I would say it's always important to be empathetic and caring and kind to your team. The context matters for whatever kind of feedback you're giving. So it's important to maybe reiterate that context and bring it up again if it needs to be shared or reminded. But just be direct, I think more than anything, and be clear about what it is you're trying to say, and just work through it with the team member, whatever it is, but be nice about it. Most importantly, don't disempower your team, because they're there to do the best work of their lives. And hopefully you can help them do that by empowering them. Just don't shut them down.

[02:10:32] Christina: Yeah, I think I'm going to add on to what you're saying. It's my job to understand the goals of every single person that works for me. And this was actually really hard when I was at Etsy and I had a team of over 92 people. But one of the things that made that possible was actually the process of constant calibration. So calibration and crit, calibration and crit. And so I would hear about their performance and their goals from their managers, and I would see their work in crit.

[02:11:05] Christina: And when you can know the people as real people, so going to actually have food with them, and then seeing their work through those different lenses, you actually get to know them, and then you know what their goals are. So then, just like what Ryan was saying, when you have feedback for them, it's because you're trying to help them be better. And so always keeping their goals in the back of your mind, not necessarily your goals or the company's goals, so that they can hear it and internalize it and know that you're there to support them and to hear them.

[02:11:47] Cindy: I agree with everything that's been said. And thanks, Ryan. The one thing I'd also add is, I found that it also helps to, especially when it's difficult feedback that needs to be said because it will help them, but to also talk about why. So it's not just, hey, sharing this with you, but there's a thoughtfulness behind it that helps them see the importance of addressing something and what it will do in a helpful way. Does that answer your question?

[02:12:34] Nick: So I just wanted part two. Hello. Love this question, and I think maybe, if I ever do a future version of this presentation, I want to incorporate the feedback scenario, because that is such a hot one in terms of what I was talking about there. Because it is definitely going to activate your I'm at risk response. This is dangerous. What they're saying to me is fraught, scary, I'm unsafe, oh no. While at the same time, just for the reasons that everybody said here, it's critically important that you hear what's actually being said. So it's like a high stakes, you've got to listen, but your voice doesn't want you to listen.

[02:13:19] Nick: So my answer is just go through those tools, basically. Like maybe it would be fun and interesting and useful to figure out what is the name of, or the character of, the critical voice. Maybe it's like some little terrier that wants to jump out and bark whenever you hear someone telling you, yeah, you didn't do this so well, right? And give that terrier a name, and okay, figure out a way to say heel or sit in your mind while you're having those conversations.

[02:13:47] Nick: But most importantly, probably most powerfully, and I think this is the point you guys were making too, is get behind that to what's really being said, because it's really important that you hear the feedback, because that's going to be what helps you get better, advance in your career, etc. So I would approach it just using those tactics. And recognize that this is a situation where your inner voice is going to freak out probably, especially if the feedback is a little bit negative.

[02:14:17] Chris: Yeah, that's really good. Just to add to that, maybe to summarize: don't be defensive. Because we talk about it this way internally a lot, like whether it's good or bad, all feedback is a gift. To some degree we're all there to learn and grow. So take it to heart. It might not be what you want to hear, but it might be really important, because we all have blind spots. We all have ways to grow that we aren't fully grown into yet.

[02:14:46] Cindy: This is a good one, this whole discussion. The other thing is, seek feedback. Don't just wait for the moment to happen, or the meeting, or the career conversation. I mean real time, from people you work with, partners, whomever. And I don't think anyone would ever not be willing to respond.

Q&A: social impact, junior designers and the future

[02:15:21] Audience: Hello, how are you doing? Let me just say this has been a wonderful presentation and everything's very good. So I'm a product designer. I identify myself as a social impact communication designer. I come from a field of social work and then I turned to marketing, design, development, and recently I've also done machine learning. Okay. So I wanted to ask about, basically I love the point where you made social impact and volunteering in community groups, which is what I'm doing as well. I volunteer for diversity groups, mental health groups currently.

[02:16:04] Audience: So basically what I wanted to say is, the Figma Make, I recently just tried it not too long ago. I used it in my AI workflow. I recently created a simple prototype that helps autistic children identify things they struggle with, because actually my wife works as an ABA therapist. It's something I wanted to help her with. It was a very simple app. So I feel like AI creates a big opportunity, because just making that app would have made me, you know, doing the research and everything, and then I have to do technical and prototyping as well. For me I just had to do research that took like a few hours, and it did the prototype for me. Figma Make did it, to make simple changes.

[02:16:55] Audience: So yeah, I feel like AI is a very big opportunity, and you can do a lot of things with AI. You don't have to be scared of adopting it to your workflow. But my question for the panel is, for someone like me who wants to be an industry voice, and my aim is really big, like I want to create social impact clubs that help a lot of people as much as I can, as much as we can. What do you advise for someone like me who wants to make a very big social impact change?

[02:17:41] Chris: It sounds like you're already doing a lot of the right things. Okay, so keep doing what you're doing. There's just so much opportunity to do good out there, and it sounds like you've already found ways to do that. So what do you feel like is lacking for you right now? What are you missing?

[02:18:02] Audience: For me, I'm actually someone who came from Asia not too long ago. I'm literally here jobless right now because I'm working for a work visa, just looking at volunteering groups and nonprofits, because that's all I'm allowed to do right now. I feel like I just lack the sense of culture, because I've never worked in the western market before except for an AI company that I did machine learning for. But I want to grow as a product designer, not as an AI developer, because that was just something I wanted to learn and build into my workflow. So I'm like, how do I level up my career as a communicator of voice, so I can actually lead and impact?

[Transcript truncated at Airtable's field limit. Full text: transcripts-readable/UfI02ht4l68.md in the docs repo.]