A Compelling Product Vision Through Insight Development

Timo Hilhorst, Anthea Blanas, Audrey Cheng, Dean McEvoy at UXDX APAC. Video: https://youtu.be/ZcEDf60o7zE

Readable transcript: edited from the recording's captions for readability (fillers and false starts removed, punctuation and section headings added). Wording is the speaker's own. Timestamps are positions in the video. Names marked [?] could not be verified against the audio.

Introductions, and the goldilocks of constraints

[00:00:00] Dean: As mentioned, a bit of my background. I'm a startup founder at heart and I've started a bunch of companies. I'm best known for one that I started and sold in 10 months for 40 million [?], but I haven't quite worked out the formula to do that every year yet. Since then I've been a bit of an angel investor, so I've made 116 different angel investments. And I started to notice something, that the companies that succeeded had something common about them, and it was about their ability to uncover insights and instill them into the team and take action in the correct and appropriate ways. Now, I've had a lot of experience doing this in startups, but I've had very, very little experience doing this in very big corporate situations, except for when my company got acquired.

[00:00:40] Dean: The talks here today, I would really encourage all of you to go and listen to them in detail, because there's some great practical hands-on tips you can walk away with. What I want to do today is I'm going to dig in and just ask a couple of questions of the speakers one by one. And when I ask you, start with who you are and what's going on. Let's just dig straight into it. I won't do the intros with everyone up front, let's just do the intros as we do the questions around.

[00:01:13] Dean: So Timo, I watched your talk first, and you make this really interesting point about what I call the goldilocks of constraints. You kind of don't want too many constraints and you don't want none, and the benefit of doing that is that you get this magical kind of creativity that comes out of the team. Why do you think creativity is so important in a product team, and how do you balance that with them actually following the insights and data that's coming in from research? So creativity versus research: why is it important? But maybe first of all, who you are and where you are.

[00:01:53] Timo: All right, thanks, Dean. Really nice to be here. My name is Timo, I'm based in Melbourne, originally from Holland, and then came to Melbourne via quite some time in the UK. I'm based in Richmond, so I'm based on Wurundjeri country land, so I'd just like to pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging.

[00:02:15] Timo: So to get to your question, within the context, obviously I try to instill this in our teams at Seek as well, but I've seen this all over. Where the creativity that we really want to harness in our teams is really important, is that firstly there's a reason why those people are hired. So we all work with fantastically capable and talented people, and typically the people that work in a product team are the ones that are closest to the technology, closest to the product and closest to the customer. So they really get a lot of the nuances and they really live their product and their customers' journeys every day. And so there's a lot of creativity that you can unlock by getting their perspective on how best to solve the problems.

[00:03:03] Timo: And where I think this goldilocks idea comes from is that giving the teams that kind of context and saying, this is where we believe the company's headed, this is how we believe your team fits in, and largely this is the problem that we want you to solve, stops teams from veering too far off course. Which can be a really negative experience for two reasons. One is, if you don't have those constraints, you can get a bit of analysis paralysis, where you've got so many options that it's really hard to choose what to do. And the other thing is that it can create this false idea of autonomy. So you can end up somewhere that wasn't really intended, and it's outside of what the company is trying to achieve. And that's probably the most disempowering experience, if you feel like you had this freedom to go run off and explore somewhere, and then you end up somewhere you're quite excited about but then the rest of the business isn't.

The corporate hackathon that went too far

[00:04:01] Dean: And so I think you gave a great example in your talk of when you were doing a corporate hackathon, and that exactly happened. Maybe you could tell people that story in case they haven't seen it.

[00:04:13] Timo: Sure. So this is probably one of the best experiences of my career, but it was an absolute failure from a startup point of view. I worked for this company that wanted to diversify, and they were keen to create this environment where we could start up new businesses internally. But we'd never done this before, so there were hidden constraints that people weren't even really aware of. I'll go into a lot more detail in the talk, so I encourage people to watch that for the full story, and I don't want to take up too much time, but basically we ended up going somewhere really exciting that was completely outside of the company's core competencies, and that had a much longer path to profitability. That probably an angel investor like yourself would maybe have been kind of interested in, but within our corporate constraints really didn't work.

[00:05:00] Timo: So it turned out that there were these constraints around, how quickly does this thing need to at least prove that it can make money? How closely does it need to align to what we do really well as a business, so we can give ourselves this unfair advantage? I think that was a really good example of those constraints not even existing, but in retrospect one of the main things I would have done differently is spend a lot more time up front digging deeper to uncover some of those constraints before we started doing anything.

[00:05:28] Dean: I think that's a great takeaway. If you work, our habit is to go talk to customers to understand their problems and needs and things, but in a corporate you forget to go and interview the stakeholders to understand them. They're an important factor in a bigger corporate environment, I think, and that was a good takeaway for me.

Bringing customer emotion into a big bank

[00:05:45] Dean: I might switch gears to Anthea now. I was looking at your talk, and you tell this story of, in Westpac, a girl who messed up her credit score by applying for a bunch of credit cards and was just emotionally distraught because she couldn't get any loans. You mentioned that this emotion was so important to convey to the product team. In a company as big as Westpac, how do you do that? How practically did you do it, did you just bring her in and make her cry, or how did you bring it into the team? You're muted, by the way, Anthea.

[00:06:23] Anthea: Thanks for the question. My name's Anthea, I'm based here in Sydney, Australia, I'm originally from Greece, and I moved here around five years ago from the United States. In Westpac I'm focusing more on basically uncovering, to your point Dean, people's behavior and pain points in financial services, and then bringing those insights within the organization so that we can develop services, with other specialists within the organization, that are speaking to those core customer needs.

[00:07:01] Anthea: So to answer your question, those interviews basically just reveal so many deep insights about people and how they go about their finances. And these things are really emotionally connected to their everyday lives. So the only way that we can actually bring those in is to tell the stories of people. That's a fundamental way of getting people within the organization that don't necessarily have access to speak to these people, and bring those insights that actually ground us in reality. Because when we are in a large organization, we tend to do the work that we do every single day, but we don't necessarily have insights into what people are doing every day. So that was the key important thing.

[00:07:49] Dean: Do you practically use any tools? Is it to sit and watch a video of the interview, or anything that distills it for people?

[00:07:58] Anthea: No, so because we're bound by ethics, we do not disclose people's real information, for confidentiality purposes. So the way we do that is we actually write stories, hide their names, but really just focus on where people are at, what they were trying to do, what the emotion was like. Those are the type of stories that we actually bring in and convey back to the business.

Many behaviors coming into one product

[00:08:26] Dean: There was a part of your talk that really opened my mind up to the complexity of building a product inside something like Westpac, and that was you told the story of all the different personas that might go and sign up for a credit card. How does a company deal with that? It's one product, but you've got 20 different ways of people coming into that same product. How do you deal with that complexity? It's probably, you should go and listen to Anthea's talk, but if you could give a little takeaway for people that are suffering with this kind of complexity in a big corporate, what do you think they could do?

[00:09:04] Anthea: Yeah, so I guess we're not looking at personas as such, as archetypes. We're looking at basically people's behaviors, and those are really complex. So the way someone might use a financial product, for example in my talk, and you can go and see if there, people might basically just splurge and spend on things that they're really passionate about, and other people are more reluctant and actually really are planning around things and go through a rigid process of budgeting and goal planning.

[00:09:40] Anthea: The thing is that financial products and services are so used by everyone around the world and they've been here forever. So I guess for us to actually figure out what the future is and design products and services around all of these different behaviors, we just need to be cautious about the consequences that those behaviors create for different people. So having those things in mind helps us also de-risk things for customers, so that people use financial services in a more appropriate way and basically to benefit themselves instead of getting in trouble, because they don't necessarily know how the structures of finances work.

Shared interviewing between product and design

[00:10:30] Dean: Cool. I'll dig into a bit of Audrey's talk now. You're an ex-product manager who then got set up to run the head of a UX team, and so you sort of understood that there's a tension between these two schools and how they play together. The talk gives you some really practical steps, and I really encourage anyone that's experienced this firsthand. You know, products and design, always, who controls what, whose call is it, whose idea wins. This happens all the time, and I thought you had some great practical solutions of how you do that. It was around shared planning and shared interviewing. How did you get the teams to agree to do this? So there's a lot of encouraging engineers and other people to get involved in interviewing. Another part was, was there ever a sense of, that's not my job? How did you get them to want to do this, and what was the resistance you found within the organization to doing this? And don't forget to introduce yourself as well.

[00:11:31] Audrey: Kia ora, I'm Audrey and I'm based here in Auckland, New Zealand. I'm originally from Toronto, Canada though, but I've been in New Zealand for I think over 20 years now, so quite a long time. Interesting, actually. I ended up running both departments, so product and design, and I've done that with the last two roles. I'm the chief product officer at SnapComms, we're an Everbridge company, and I also run UX design, research, design, as well as product management. And same for when I was at the hyper growth company Pushpay. So I found myself leading the UX team, both research and design, and not really understanding what drove that department, what the values were of the people. So I did a lot of research, and it's in my talk, the steps that I went through there.

[00:12:16] Audrey: But you're right, it does take a mindset shift and a cultural shift as well. And Anthea actually, interestingly enough, talks about this in her talk as well, about the changes that are required within an organization to adapt and to make changes. Talking about the benefits of being able to do that: innately, engineers do want to know why they're working on the things that they're working on. I think we've all heard stories where we build something, engineers spend a lot of time, everybody says hey, this is a deadline, everybody's running hard towards it, engineering delivers it and then no one uses it. And then it's a sad story that engineering feel really terrible about, like, why were we working on this in the first place? And the idea of bringing people closer to the customer and the customer stories, and while engineers may not be the interviewee, we're able to allow them to be observers to really hear the heartfelt feelings of our customers about what's challenging.

[00:13:11] Audrey: And I think one of the hardest things though, I felt in that whole process, was actually getting product and design to break down some barriers as to, here's our roles, here's the line, you do this and I do this. What I was trying to achieve by the shared interviewing was the one area where I thought actually we could come together. Product managers want to interview customers, designers want to interview customers, it's actually a shared desire, and it's an area where we can find some common ground, understand and build value for each other. And so I think that enabled us to open the doors up in terms of the way that we're working, and to allow people to not feel threatened about having cross-functional responsibilities sometimes.

Does involving everyone slow you down?

[00:13:59] Dean: It's some really good practical tips, I again encourage you all to get in. The question to the group, it's probably bouncing off what you've just brought up, Audrey, but all of the things that you suggested in your talks involve getting people closer to the problem, giving more context, empowering product teams, as we see and read about. But they also come at a cost of slowing things down. If the engineer is sitting in an interview, they're not coding, and you're not shipping code and there's no features going out. I've been on both sides of the camp. I've been in the product team that's telling the CEO to bugger off, because it's worthwhile, and I've also been the person cracking the whip going, you guys need to ship some stuff more. How do you deal with convincing people that it's worthwhile doing? How do you prove it? What's the proof point that you go, well, this will work out better?

[00:14:54] Audrey: Yeah, well, I'll start. I believe in this. Sometimes, not everything needs to slow down, right, but I think sometimes there is that slow down to go faster. And I do believe that it is important to measure. One of the values that I see in engineering not necessarily going to every single interview, but actually listening to some of those interviews, is the fact that they build context, and it actually allows them and empowers engineering to think of better ways to build product. We do a lot of co-design, and we bring engineers into co-design so that they can have their voice heard as to how to solve different problems with us.

[00:15:28] Audrey: And I think measurement is a really positive way to look at it. I say in my talk that one of my design friends, Jasmine Wilkinson, she said to me, you know, Audrey, we can build the most usable wrong thing. And I think that's true of anything. When people don't have the right context, they can go about designing something either from a technical architectural standpoint or from a UX standpoint that could be quite wrong, because they didn't know what the context of what we were trying to ultimately achieve was, or what the direction is. So I definitely think that thinking about what your measures are, thinking about your iteration process, those are ways that can help you not necessarily feel the need, there might be an initial feeling of slow down because we're incorporating some new things, but ultimately I think you'll end up finding that your cycle time improves over time because the decision cycles are quicker.

Speed of building versus speed of achieving

[00:16:15] Dean: Yeah, anyone else?

[00:16:19] Timo: I think that's exactly right, so building the wrong thing really fast doesn't really help that much. That's one part. And I think actually empowering teams, although there is a bit of investment up front, there was actually a question about this for the previous panel that I think was very similar. If you don't do that, and you don't give that kind of context and guidance up front, what you can end up with, especially in a corporate environment, is that you have to ask permission for everything that you then want to do, because it's not quite clear where the boundaries are of where you're free. And that is the slowest thing that can happen. If every time that you come up with something you go, okay, now I need to go get sign off from a bunch of execs that we can go over here because we found something, that is actually a much slower way of doing it.

[00:17:07] Timo: So I think sharing that context and allowing people to focus on the outcome rather than the output. So even if your output might be less, if the output is not having the intended impact then that still doesn't really help. And so that's where I think the trade-off might almost be a false one, where the trade-off might be speed of building something versus speed of achieving something.

How a bank decides to say no

[00:17:34] Dean: I've got a bit of a different question for you, Anthea. I work with a lot of startups and I'm always telling them, there's that old saying that startups don't die of starvation, they die of indigestion, by trying to do too much at any one time. And when you think about a bank, it's not one product, it's like a hundred different products. How do you guys ever decide to say no to things? Is there ever a time when you go, that's not our core competence, it's not our focus? Because it seems that you've got products for different people at different stages and different ages, and then, yes, we'll do not credit cards but finance and apps and leasing, and it's kind of like, wow, where does it end, and how do you ever say no to stuff? Or do you?

[00:18:18] Anthea: Well, that's a very good question. It is hard, I'm not going to say that that's an easy challenge, and it's a challenge within the organization to say yes to things that we're really good at and no to things that we're not. We have said no to a lot of things internally, because you need to balance what is actually good for the business and good for the customer, and good in general for what we want to achieve as an organization.

[00:18:49] Anthea: But I think what has helped us make decisions is basically being guided through the new organizational change, because Westpac is going through a service transformation at the moment. We have a company vision, and basically what we're asking ourselves are questions like, just because we can, should we? And so there are a lot of different startups in the market at the moment that are doing a lot of new and innovative things, but for us it might be adjacent to our business, but it doesn't mean that we would take on actually doing that type of service, because it's not something that we would want to release to people.

[00:19:33] Anthea: I guess the key thing about saying no to things within the business: we have so many different departments and so many projects that bubble up, and so a lot of people actually want to do the best thing and reach our customers and do a lot of innovative work. The trade-off that we need to also manage is basically the risk that we have, because we have a huge customer base. So any type of change that we introduce, we need to be really cautious about what the consequences are. I'm kind of quoting Dr Genevieve Bell, because she basically said, it was a couple of years ago in a talk like today's, problems are yesterday's solutions. So for us, we are always trying to figure out, and projecting the future, to not create another problem of introducing unintended consequences within the business. And that helps us de-risk and helps us say no to things that we don't want to look into.

Can corporates out-innovate startups?

[00:20:40] Dean: Awesome. Audrey, I know you've had a bit of experience working with startups, I've seen you in the Startmate community for a while. Do you ever think the corporate world will be able to out-innovate startups? There's a lot of talks here today about how to take the best of startups and put them into corporate. Do you think that's possible? What stops corporates from innovating at the speed of startups, and do you think there's an answer?

[00:21:08] Audrey: Yeah, I guess that's a hard question. As Anthea was just talking about, she had some really great points around approach, culture and structure. But I think we have seen in some corporates where they have made some big changes. So we have that idea of the two pizza size teams, and that came from Amazon for example. So I don't think it's necessarily about the size of the organization, I think it's about mindset too, and I think it's about how willing is that organization to change what they're doing and the way that they're doing it, and the possibilities of failing and iterating, are they willing to take that on. So I don't think it's necessarily that the corporate world can't innovate, I think it's just that they need the culture and the leadership to change the way that they're working.

[00:21:52] Dean: Is there any examples anyone can think of, of seeing that, like another corporate, or maybe something that happened internally and you're like, wow, we really found an insight in a customer, got around it and built something great? Is there anything that comes to mind as an example that you guys think of, particularly the corporate world? You see it all the time in the startup world, but I think that's what people want to learn here today, that might be in bigger corporates and trying to accelerate the pace of innovation.

Sustaining versus disruptive innovation

[00:22:18] Timo: I think it's interesting, because it also depends what we mean by innovation. I'm going to out myself here as a Clayton Christensen fan, but there is a difference between disruptive and sustaining innovation. So sustaining innovation makes things better along the lines that people are already competing on. And if you look at what corporates can take from startups there, it's things like new technologies that make things go faster, or a slightly different way of doing things. So something that I noticed in the fintech world in London, for example, is that when Monzo came along, which was this completely digital first bank that just had their app and everything was much more instantaneous as a consumer, within a year most of the big banks had adapted their services to match that. So they were a real catalyst for innovation. And so I think this is where startups are incredibly valuable to corporates as well, because they push the corporate along. But it's very hard to compete on that basis.

[00:23:20] Timo: The other side, disruptive innovation, becomes much more of a, and that's usually more based on the business model than purely a technology, and it's taking a completely different approach that actually makes it impossible for the corporate to do the right thing in the short term by competing. And so there's lots of, read The Innovator's Dilemma, there's lots of examples of this, but it's basically things like disrupting the market from below. So you do something that actually takes a corporate's least profitable customers away, and so for a while actually profitability per customer goes up, and so the corporate doesn't really notice it until you've moved up into that space.

[00:23:56] Timo: And I think that is the part where traditionally, I mean, look at the difference in any of the top 500 companies in the world now compared to what they were 20 years ago. That's where the quick change really seems to happen, and that is a really hard part, because it really requires a company to either create the space internally, and I've tried to do this in the company, it's really hard just to do something completely different inside an existing organization, or really have that true long-term view to understand, this is where the market's going and we need to take a hit in the next couple of years in order to make sure that our business is sustainable. That's the part that's probably the hardest for any company to play into.

The hardest product decision recently

[00:24:38] Dean: I'm going to ask a final question, and I just want to give the audience a reminder to come in with some questions for the panel. So send them in, I think via Slack is the plan. But my final question to the group is, and it'll give us an insight into the way that your organizations have worked and how you've practically implemented even some of the things that you've said in your talks: what do you think's the hardest product decision you've made recently, and then how did you resolve it? What was the context, and maybe what was the outcome, if you've already got there so far? I thought I'd finish on a nice easy question. But I think it would be interesting for us to get inside the heads of some experts like you, to see a real world example and then how you dealt with it. What was the input, the insight from the customer, and how did you make a hard product decision? Who wants to go first?

[00:25:40] Dean: Nobody. Can you think of maybe an example of a feature that was released recently and reverse engineer that? Maybe that would be interesting. So something that you did that changed the product, and how that came to be.

[00:26:01] Timo: I can think of an example that's interesting to me because it kind of clashes with some of the stuff that I talk about in my talk. It was actually where we had a team that was set up with a quite clear outcome of what they were trying to drive. So they were working on one of our products on the hirer side, and the main thing that they were trying to drive was increase adoption from smaller organizations, so SMEs and smaller corporates, because their core product already had quite strong adoption among enterprise customers. And so they were doing some great discovery work to try and figure out what are the things that we could do here that would really move the dial.

[00:26:43] Timo: But in the meantime the competitive context shifted, and so there was kind of a two-pronged opportunity and threat there, that suddenly we were getting a lot more insight from our sales teams that there might be a big commercial opportunity on the recruiter side that we weren't really taking advantage of. And at the same time we could see some of our competitors starting to move in that direction. So there was both a real opportunity, some real space to innovate there, but at the same time also a threat that we could be losing at that level and could be too late.

[00:27:23] Timo: And so the really tough thing there was to get a team that was getting a lot of momentum, that were making great progress within the constraints that they'd been given, to say, actually the context has shifted, and because of that we'd love you to park all the great stuff that you've come up with now and we really need you to go and focus over here. And that's quite a hard thing, because it does feel to an extent a bit disempowering to teams. But at the same time, this is the thing where the top-down guidance in a business does need to come sometimes, to say, this was the context but now the context has shifted, this is the new context. And still give them enough space to, within that new context, then do their thing again and go back on that discovery journey to figure out how best to solve that. But that was probably one of the harder decisions, especially with a team that was really gaining some really good momentum.

Practical tips: tools and sharing insights

[00:28:11] Dean: I just want to check in. Jovi, is there any questions that are coming in from the audience so we could ask the panel, before maybe asking for some final thoughts from the panel on some tips they could give to the audience on best practice in product?

[00:28:29] Jovi: Not so far, I think the audience is a little shy this time around.

[00:28:35] Dean: I'm asking all the hard questions. So is there anything that you could walk away and give the audience, maybe from a Westpac perspective and then from a SnapComms perspective, something that you think you could give them that they would walk away with where they'd be like, well, that's an interesting insight? It could be a tool you use, a way you've shared insights across a company, something practical would be ideal, a way that people have shared insights and got something out of it. For instance, there's a tool that I use with startups called Dovetail, so I use that a lot to capture video, and it records and transcribes it. I then use that to pull the insights out, and that's the way we share those across the different cross-functional teams. I actually like Audrey's way of doing it better, where they get involved in it, because then they're more hands-on. So I'm going to take that and run with that. That's an example of how I took something that Audrey talked about and I'm going to change the way I do things. Is there any other kind of practical tips like that?

[00:29:52] Anthea: Yes, so I guess with the talk that I've been focusing on, journey maps, people use that as a tool. There is an online tool you can use, Smaply [?]. But I guess for me and the team that I work with, we basically use whatever tool is available to communicate the information in a compelling way.

[00:29:59] Anthea: The key thing I guess that I would want to leave the audience with is, it is hard to actually innovate within a large organization, and it's hard to keep the focus of different teams, because there's so many different teams looking at very different areas of the business. So designers and engineers within the organization, if they can team up and basically have one voice and be able to communicate the outcomes that we want to achieve, and continue to do so, because it needs ownership but it needs people to do it again and again and again to actually get the message through. It's the only way to basically change the mindsets and change the culture and change how we work. Because in a large organization you're relying on multiple people and multiple different minds to actually operate in a very focused way to achieve the outcomes that we want. So there's no silver bullet that helps you do that, it's just constantly advocating for the right things and for the right outcomes.

Getting a vision across silos

[00:31:28] Dean: There's one quick question just before we wrap up, from Hannes. It says, how do you provide visibility of a well-developed clear vision in a growing business where silos start to open and not everyone is on the same boat? Anyone want to take that one? So how do you get vision across different silos where people are focused on one area?

[00:31:50] Dean: I'd probably say don't have silos, number one. Reorganize your company so that it's actually aligned with the customer and not with the way that you do business. That's fundamentally, if you're stuck with that, what do you do to get around it? I look at Sony and see how they failed by having silos.

[00:32:12] Audrey: Yeah, I think you can start in a small way though. I think teams, at any level, maybe you can't change things from an organizational structural level, but I think you can change things from a team level. And I'm a real advocate of a first team. And a first team isn't like all product managers being the first team and all designers being the first team, it's about, the first team that I'm on is the engineering team, the designers, the other PMs that I'm working with, that we're driving towards a goal. And that's my first team, and it should be the cross-functional team that is the first team. And that could extend out to product marketing as well, because you really should be thinking about that end to end. I think it's important that you start looking at it as a first team.

[00:32:50] Audrey: And I think when we look at vision, I think it's really important that you take some steps to getting there. Talk about directionally where we're headed, what does this quarter look like then to help us get there, what are the milestones we sort of think along the way that will be there? It might not be exact, but what are the things that we think will help us get to that future horizon? And then what are we working on this quarter that contributes to that, and how does it contribute?

[00:33:12] Audrey: One of the things that I'm a big advocate of is that people on product teams, product designers and engineers, should be better storytellers. We're not very good at taking people on a journey necessarily of why we're working on the things that we're working on and how it will impact our objectives. In my talk I talk a little bit about Lean Canvas, and it's not necessarily the canvas itself, but I really like it as a framework for storytelling. And the reason why is because you have to clearly define what the problem is that you're solving for the customer, who's the customer that you have in mind, how are you going to measure it, how are you going to go to market with it, what's the channels, what do you think the cost is going to be for you, and what's the revenue? And that revenue doesn't necessarily need to be more sales, it could be actually we're going to reduce churn, or we're going to reduce the support tickets that are coming through on this particular issue. There could be a number of ways to be measuring the impact on business. But I think when you can look at that holistically as a team, it's kind of like the story on a page. It's the story of your product, of the why you're working on the thing, on a page. And I think it's really helpful in aligning the team around where you're headed and what you're doing.

Closing

[00:34:16] Dean: That's a good place to... oh sorry, Anthea, did you want to add?

[00:34:20] Anthea: Yeah, it's a really good point that Audrey just mentioned. And I think by looking at all of our different talks, I think the key thing also is that you need to have, to Timo's point, autonomy. You also need to have autonomy and creativity, and basically that buy-in from leadership to actually give you the space to do that. Because there's little that you can do if the leaders of the organization actually don't allow you to have that space to be able to bring these insights in and actually work in the way that you need to work to make the change and the impact that you need to make. So I know that from my experience, if we didn't have leaders from the organization that actually supported us to do this type of work, we wouldn't be able to do so.

[00:35:15] Dean: I think that's right. If you guys go and watch the talk of the three here, you'll learn how constraints can change the way and the creativity you get from an organization. If you listen to Anthea's, you'll understand that if you can understand that emotion and convey it to your product team in a really compelling way, and then with Audrey's, if you can take the values and bring the whole team on a journey from start to finish where they're part of the product, they're part of understanding, you'll not only uncover the great insights that'll build great products, but you'll instill those insights into the team in the correct way so that they'll actually get some good done. And I think that's what I learned today. So thank you guys for your fantastic efforts to share that with this group.