Paya Do & Shilpi Sinha, In Conversation

Shilpi Sinha at UXDX Community: Nordics. Video: https://youtu.be/mynrYHixSHY

Readable transcript: edited from the recording's captions for readability (fillers and false starts removed, punctuation and section headings added). Wording is the speaker's own. Timestamps are positions in the video. Names marked [?] could not be verified against the audio.

Moving countries during a pandemic

[00:00:02] Shilpi: Hi, Paya.

[00:00:04] Paya: Hi, Shilpi, how are you?

[00:00:05] Shilpi: I'm good, thank you. How are you?

[00:00:07] Paya: I'm good. I just finished work, and I just finished Swedish class too. I just moved here last year, in October.

[00:00:15] Shilpi: All right, great. I wanted to say I really enjoyed your presentation, and I think the move you've made is really interesting. I guess it's one thing moving to a different country, but also moving during a pandemic. How has that been?

[00:00:39] Paya: It's funny. I feel like I was really comfortable with my job in Tokyo. I lived in Tokyo for 14 years. But it got, it's not boring, but I couldn't learn much, because I got too used to Japanese markets. I worked with some American markets as well during my career. So I thought I needed some change, and then it was just like, why not find a job in Europe? Because my brother is in Europe, he's in Germany now. I haven't met him for a year, so he's going to come visit me at Easter.

[00:01:19] It's quite challenging, because I moved here in the winter, and I didn't fully understand the effect of the weather, and then not being able to go out and socialize with people. I started my job at H&M Group last year in November, and everything is remote, so it's a little bit challenging for me to get to know my team members and stuff like that. But so far it has been great. How about you? You just moved to a new job too, I believe.

[00:01:59] Shilpi: Yeah. I live in Sweden, and always have, but I just started a job in Denmark, in Copenhagen, last year. I was in the office for about three days before lockdown happened again. So it's been a strange adaptation to working completely remote. But I'm actually starting to get a little bit of post-pandemic anxiety, in terms of when we're expected to be back in the office. Because I think all of us have been in this for a year. We've started to settle down, maybe have routines and ways of working remotely, and then we're going to move back to the offices, and it's going to be another change. So yeah, change is constant.

Remote research and recruiting sensitively

[00:02:57] Paya: When I was watching your talk, a lot of the practices can be applied to remote testing, in my opinion, so it's very useful. How have you coped with usability testing or user research in this remote working environment so far?

[00:03:20] Shilpi: At Pandora, we've only done remote testing so far, so in terms of that, it hasn't been a big change. What has changed is considering the pandemic: a lot of people being out of work, losing their income. That is something we've had to be sensitive about when doing participant recruitment, for instance, in terms of finding people with a specific income, or things like that, or a specific occupation. So those are just some considerations we've had to make in the recruitment of people, and just being sensitive to this being a really hard situation for a lot of people.

[00:04:19] Paya: Yeah, it's quite new to me. Back in Tokyo, actually, with a lot of usability testing... Since I've lived here, at H&M, they give us a lot of freedom to do usability testing. But back in Japan, to be honest, we had to go through different layers of legal documents, and we had to contact the marketing department. So usually, when we wanted to do some usability testing, it took us around two weeks to a month from planning to end. So what I was surprised at here is that there's a sense of freedom about usability testing here in the region.

[00:05:06] Do you have any advice for me as a new designer who just moved here? I believe there are a lot of expats who actually moved last year with me. I know a few designers or product managers who moved to Stockholm to work with Klarna, Spotify, H&M. Any advice?

Designing globally from a small corner of the world

[00:05:26] Shilpi: You touch upon an interesting thing with the usability testing, because I think it is a bit different here in Scandinavia in general, because there aren't a lot of people here. Working as a designer in Sweden, but working for a global brand with customers all around the world, I find it a bit challenging, because you're creating a product for people all around the world, but you are in an area that represents a very, very small part of the world.

[00:06:05] For instance, when I was at IKEA, we actually had our office right next to an IKEA store in Malmö, in Sweden. On the one hand, it was great, because you had the customers and the products just a two-minute walk from the office, which is great, because you want to be as close to your customers as possible. But we also needed to remember that this store wasn't representative of the majority of our customers. I think it can be easy to be a bit blind. Or not blind, but of course we're all affected by, or colored by, our environment and our cultural and geographical belonging. And I think your presentation really showed the contrasts in a really great way.

[00:06:58] The only thing I would think of, without generalizing too much: I think you have a really interesting background, coming from Japan. I think just engaging in local events and communities, to learn more about the local design community. But also, from a selfish point of view, sharing your perspective. Because, as I said, your presentation was really interesting, and I think it's really good to remind yourself that even though you're designing for people all around the world, you're sort of in a bubble, and you have to remind yourself of your biases and everything.

[00:07:53] I know there's a big conference in Stockholm, From Business to Buttons, I don't know if you've heard of that, which is really popular in Scandinavia. So I would go, and take opportunities to speak at those events, because, like I said, I think it would be really good and enriching for the local community to have your perspectives.

Biases and the outsider's view

[00:08:16] Paya: Thank you, I really appreciate that. When you talk about biases and stuff like that: I grew up as a biracial kid in California, and then I moved from California to Vietnam to stay with my mom, and then back to California again. It was really confusing. I think that's a whole other presentation I could make. Even designing in Japan, I'm always an outsider for some reason. I would feel like an outsider, and after I moved here that feeling is actually still there. It's always there. But I feel like I got some really great advice from my mentors and people like that: to use this sense of recognizing biases as an outsider to make better products. So I always remember that.

[00:09:13] And back to the point you talked about, your office being next to an IKEA store when you worked for IKEA. At H&M, I heard, and it's not appropriate in this climate, but we also have an office next to a few H&M stores, and sometimes some designers actually go to the store, hand out an NDA, and then just interview the user on the spot. So I think that's always a good practice.

[00:09:47] Shilpi: Yeah, definitely. And like you said with biases, I think the best we can hope to do is just be aware that we do have them. I think the dangerous part is when we think that just by knowing of them, we're rid of them. But I'm curious: moving here, is there anything that surprised you?

Surprises, and digital transformation

[00:10:11] Paya: A lot of people eating a lot of pastries all the time, for sure. I was surprised. And also, in Tokyo during the pandemic, people are still wearing masks, because the proximity between person and person in Japan is not really there. But here, people keep their distance and stuff like that. I feel like it says something about the cultures here as well. People aren't confrontational, and people are generally very polite and humble.

[00:10:50] In terms of workflow, I'm not sure if you have the same experience as me, but at H&M Group we're going through a digital transformation. I used to work in more purely tech environments before. It can be boring, but you know the best practices and everything, so there's not a lot of trial and error. This is my first time being part of a digital transformation for a huge consumer brand, and we have different markets as well. So it's overwhelming, but also super exciting for me to be a part of.

[00:11:33] Shilpi: Yeah, so both at IKEA and at Pandora, where I am now, we're going through a digital transformation. I feel like in the beginning at IKEA, it really felt like digital transformation was this entity, almost, or a phase: okay, now we're going into digital transformation, and then we're waiting until we get out of it and we're done. But then you realize that it's not really a phase. It's more getting into a continuation of a new way of working.

[00:12:18] And I don't know what your experience has been, but I feel like the mistake I've seen happen is that there's been a lot of focus in the beginning on strategy and the technology, and getting rid of legacy architecture and all of that, but forgetting the biggest part, which is the people who need to drive the change. What have your experiences been like in terms of change management in digital transformation?

[00:13:00] Paya: It's not enough for me to say yet, but I feel like people know that they have to change. That is a good mindset to have in my current team and current department. However, combined with the situation we have now, remote work and stuff like that, it's also hard to build trust between different team members. At H&M we have good visions about how to digitalize and how to make everything agile, but, how to say, I feel like we still have a long way to go.

[00:13:51] There's this book called High Growth Handbook, a famous Silicon Valley book that I read before, about when startups or companies go through hypergrowth, when you're trying to scale the organization, when you want to make a big change for your product or your company. It's a good book, and in the book it says that typically it's going to take about one to two years. So I'm just being patient and trying to be positive. And I feel like as long as I work with good people, and people share the same vision, then it's going to be all right, I hope. And I feel like when we're back in the office again, everything is just going to be naturally better, for some reason.

[00:14:36] Shilpi: Yeah. One thing I realize I'm really missing is these informal meetings, water cooler talk, where you're networking with people within your company in a way that you don't really get to do otherwise. I really feel like it's so important in terms of, like you said, having a team that you trust. Building trust is really hard when you're completely remote.

Consensus, democracy and feedback culture

[00:15:22] Paya: I think it's so funny, people talk about consensus a lot here in Sweden. It's quite a cultural thing, maybe, I don't know. For example, it's funny how in Japan it's vague consensus, you know what I mean? Here it's more expressive consensus. And in America it's going to be, "Oh, you're right, I'm wrong," or, "Sorry, I'm right, you're wrong," that sort of thing. So I have to switch between personalities, or my communication style, a little bit here. But what do you think about consensus, as a Swede?

[00:16:03] Shilpi: It's funny you mention it, because it's actually one of the things I noticed. I've lived in the US for just half a year, but I would say that was long enough to really tell some major differences between how workplaces can look in the US compared to Sweden. I worked in the US, and then I came to IKEA, which is super Swedish, and one thing I noticed was this very strong sense of democracy, and the importance of democracy. And that was actually something that was challenged as we were going into this digital transformation, in that, okay, we don't all need to agree on one thing in order to move forward. So I think that's one thing that has been a difference between the US and Sweden, at least, which we're now challenging a bit.

[00:17:20] Another thing is that I can feel that Swedes might be a bit more polite, maybe. Or not polite, but I guess reserved, compared to Americans, who might be a bit more outspoken, just in my experience. And one thing where I've noticed that is feedback culture at work. So it's interesting to see my Swedish colleagues being pushed into a different way than what we've learned or been raised into.

Going global and staying relevant to each market

[00:18:01] Paya: Oh, I see. It's going to take a while for me to learn, but so far I'm enjoying it. A lot of people told me that Swedish culture is quite similar to Japanese culture in this way, and I kind of agree. What do you think about, recently we have some amazing Swedish startups, no longer startups, like Spotify and Klarna, trying to go global into different markets? Have you had any interesting experiences working with, let's say, Asian markets, or European, African, American markets, working with IKEA and Pandora?

[00:18:39] Shilpi: Yeah. I think it's so interesting to delve into how differently your brand and your product are perceived depending on where in the world you are. That always gives a lot of interesting insights. I remember when IKEA was going into the Indian market, they were developing new products that were specifically suited to common problems in India. They would often have, what's it called, power cuts, and they had these light bulbs in the ceiling lamps that were being charged while you had electricity, and then if the power went out, they would continue to light, and you could screw off the bulbs and use them as torches.

[00:19:54] One thing we've struggled with, both at IKEA and Pandora, is that we're trying to grow and go global and into more markets, but at the same time we're struggling with market customization and being relevant to each market that we go into. How have you worked with those challenges? Have you had any experiences in trying to balance that?

[00:20:29] Paya: When I worked in Japan, I can talk a little bit about my experience with Amazon Japan. They have a big design system that hasn't changed a lot, and everything is basically automated, but they have excellent customer service for each market. They know the shipping partners, how to return everything. In every market they have a different workflow in terms of post-purchase and customer care. So that is a very good practice.

[00:21:09] My second example is when I worked with a Japanese marketplace in Tokyo, and they were trying to have their US version, and the design totally changed. We didn't use the same design, and it took a lot of work, because we basically had two design systems at once, and even the logo was different. It can work, but at the same time, as a brand, as a company, it looks confusing. What is the company? What's the product identity?

[00:21:42] And then a third example, which I'm actually trying to apply to my current work right now, is when I was in India. We talked about India here. It's interesting: a lot of people use Android phones. Only a small part of the population can afford an iPhone. And also in India there are something like 100 languages, which means it's going to take different journeys and different processes for different people to type on the keyboard. So a lot of people are using voice input. At H&M, we're trying to do more research on voice control and voice UI. And I feel like for markets like China, or some markets like Japan, where it takes more time to type something because of the languages and the characters, I think that is a very interesting strategy that we should invest more time in.

[00:22:52] And also, again, I talk about localization in my talk too. It's hard: you can't only localize the language and say, "Oh, it's done, the work is done, that market is going to be all right." We have to localize the visual language as well. So I feel like we have to empathize, and maybe do more field studies or user research with customers in each market. That's going to be the proper way to deal with this topic, I think.

Recruiting participants across markets

[00:23:30] Shilpi: When you do user testing, for instance, how do you recruit participants? Do you focus on one market at a time, or how broad do you go?

[00:23:48] Paya: I think it depends. I know people are always trying to group the UK and US together. When we do some user testing, it's okay to group them together, but sometimes the UX copywriting can be tricky, depending on UK English and US English. So that's something that we're trying to take care of at H&M. But for some special markets, especially China, which is a huge market, they have their own strategy over there, and there are different regulations that we have to follow. So we have a totally different department over there to take care of the Chinese market. For other markets, it depends on the company's capacity at the time, but we recruit users for the special markets that have maybe a special way of payment or shipping, or some different way of dealing with copywriting, for example. That's the approach that I'm trying to take at this moment. How about you?

[00:25:07] Shilpi: More or less the same. I've also experienced the same thing with grouping the US and UK markets together, and also seen the problems that happen when you do that. At Pandora, I would say the customer segments are actually quite different between the US and UK, so I definitely agree with that.

[00:25:40] I met a manager once, when we were just talking in general about working with different markets and how to do user research across different markets. Because there's always the challenge of balancing what the users want with what the business wants. This manager that I talked to mentioned a framework of fixed, firm and flexible. They would have fixed guidelines, fixed rules that had to be the same for all markets. Then firm, which are things where you can investigate whether you might be able to move some things around. And then flexible, where the markets would have a bit more freedom. So when doing research and recruiting participants, I tried to work with that framework when we're looking at different markets, to see, okay, are we focusing on questions that are fixed, or firm, or flexible?

[00:27:05] But I think we get into the problem of often testing markets that are easy just because of the language, like the US and UK. Like you said, we have almost a completely different organization for China and the Asian markets, because it's so different. And I think we really need to become better at doing user research in that market. Because Pandora is, I guess, a very traditional, female-focused company, but in Asia we have a lot of men who use our products. A lot of our imagery, visuals and design language is steered towards the female gender, but it's such an untapped market. So I think we need to learn how to do more proper user research there, and learn how we can become more inclusive in general as a brand.

Testing layouts across languages

[00:28:31] Paya: I totally agree. I can give an example. Recently there were some projects I was working on, and I was helping the QA engineers before we launched something. We have this culture as a team that we should test and make sure everything's going to look all right. And we made a really rookie mistake of not testing in some markets that have, not strange, but longer text for some copy. We realized that maybe we have to test more with Russian, Norwegian, Finnish or Arabic markets, because the text in some UI components can look really strange.

[00:29:24] So of course I agree with the user testing approach that you talked about, but I also feel like we should take more care with quality assurance as well, before shipping the same features or the same product into different markets. It's just something that happened to me recently. It took a few rounds of me and the engineers trying to fix things together: "Oh, but we forgot that market. Oh my god, okay," and then we had to redo everything again.

Remote testing tools

[00:30:02] Shilpi: I'm curious: for remote user testing, are there any tools that you have worked with that you like?

[00:30:11] Paya: It's funny you talk about it. At H&M, we're using a testing platform, so everything's automated, and in this pandemic it's totally working for us, because mostly we have to do unmoderated testing, and it's really easy to send surveys and recruit users. But the downside is everyone is a professional tester on that platform, so this can be a little bit limited in some cases. We're also trying to do a lot of guerrilla testing, and also heuristic evaluation at the same time. But hopefully, when the pandemic is over, I don't know, maybe next year, the next five years, we can have more face-to-face and moderated testing with real customers. That's what I'm aiming for.

[00:31:12] Shilpi: Yeah, exactly. I talked about doing generative research in my presentation, and it's hard when you are not able to interact with the customers the same way, or do field studies like going out to the stores, when the stores are closed. So that's a challenge.

Career paths for designers

[00:31:33] Shilpi: You're working as a senior product designer. What is the next step for you?

[00:31:40] Paya: I was a principal product designer before. It was just because I was one of the oldest designers back then, and it was natural, because I didn't want to go into management, that career direction. I'm an introvert. So this is what I'm aiming for at this moment. But also, I want to actually experience more of enterprise UX and also developer experience. That field actually needs designers more than ever. But I feel like the career framework for designers is very limited. I'm not sure, maybe it's different in Sweden, a different way of understanding the career framework for designers, if you can share it with me.

[00:32:34] Shilpi: I agree. I think it's a bit difficult as well. What I've seen with designers who have not gone into management is that they've either gone into specialization in a very specific area, like motion design or something, becoming really, really good at that. Or I've also seen people go a bit broader. And I've also seen people going into teaching, writing books and things like that. So it's a good question, and perhaps we have some participants who can share some ideas.

[00:33:18] Paya: Thank you. Really nice talking to you, Shilpi.

[00:33:20] Shilpi: You too, Paya. Thank you.