Building in Unprecedented Times.

Chhavi Shrivastava, Kax Uson, Gianluca Rosania, Karolin Siebert, Lara Mendonça at UXDX Community: Barcelona. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0CgJhHyKDo

Readable transcript: edited from the recording's captions for readability (fillers and false starts removed, punctuation and section headings added). Wording is the speaker's own. Timestamps are positions in the video. Names marked [?] could not be verified against the audio.

Introductions

[00:00:00] Chhavi: The agenda of the next 45 minutes is to be really honest: it sucked on so many levels. Let's just be honest about the year that we had, about the challenges we had to face, and in general how we all had to change and adapt to the situation. I'm so glad that for this panel we have some very, very amazing, talented people, and all of those people are also really warm and genuine. I've had the privilege of talking to them one-on-one and I can assure you, folks, that they're some of the warmest and kindest people you will come across. I would definitely say we are in luck today that we have the chance to talk to them one-on-one as well as ask all the questions that we have on the year that we've had and also the coming years. Without further ado, I would like to welcome all our panel speakers and have them on board.

[00:01:02] Chhavi: Okay, I see Lara and Kax. Is Gianluca around? Joey, do you want to ping him quickly, maybe?

[00:01:17] Joey: Yeah, I think he might be just running a little late. Let me just ping him, two seconds.

[00:01:22] Chhavi: Okay, cool. While we wait for him, maybe we can start with a round of introductions. Lara, you could go first.

[00:01:31] Lara: Sure. Hi guys, I'm Lara. I'm the Head of Product Design at Bumble. I've been at Bumble for, I think, a year and two months now, and our team has grown a lot in the last year, so that has been my main job, beyond shipping some of the things that you've seen if you're on Bumble — if you're looking for love, maybe you're not — and trying to grow a design culture as well. That's me. Before that I worked in a few startups, and I think my main drive has always been to find a mission-driven company, and that's what I found at Bumble.

[00:02:17] Kax: Hi everybody, my name is Kax. I work as a product lead in Adevinta, for a domain called Trust and Safety. I am based in Barcelona. I moved to Barcelona five years ago and I've been with Adevinta ever since, but I've also shifted different teams. In Adevinta I think I've had two or three product teams since I joined. After work, when there is time and not a lot of meetings filling my calendar, I also do product mentorship for new product managers, and I also have a community for women called Career Hacking for Women.

[00:03:04] Chhavi: Amazing, thank you Kax. And last but not the least, we have Karolin with us today. Karolin, do you want to go next?

[00:03:11] Karolin: Hello, good evening. My name is Karolin Siebert. I'm actually German, but I'm based in Barcelona since five years already and I don't feel like going back soon. I'm a front-end engineer and I work for Intent HQ here in Barcelona, although the main office is actually in London. I've also created, together with a friend, a women in tech coding meetup which basically gives introductory workshops for people that want to get into coding, which is called codebar, which is pretty amazing. That's how I met a lot of people from the community, and that's also what made me get excited about being compassionate and about mentorship.

[00:04:00] Chhavi: Cool, thank you, thank you Karolin. So nice to have you all. I think Gianluca must have gotten caught up somewhere. Well, it's 2020, so let's just go with the flow like we've been through throughout the year. The upside is that now it becomes a panel of women — we didn't plan this — who are all very strong, committed and really good mentors. That's the upside, and we just go with it, and hopefully Gianluca joins somewhere in between.

[00:04:26] Chhavi: Okay, I'm going to start with some of the questions that I already have for all of you. What I've tried is I've divided into three sections: one is empathy, another one is diversity, and the third part is careers. All of you who are on the call, feel free to drop your questions in the chat here or on the Slack, or even if you want to turn on your video and just ask them, feel free, because we are a small group and we have this liberty, thankfully.

Designing for belonging at Bumble

[00:04:59] Chhavi: Let's just get started, and I'm going to start with you, Lara, again. The question is that in these times when people have heightened emotional responses, designing for a dating app definitely gets more complex than it already is. Can you talk about a few examples where you and your team had to take extra care to design features that make people feel that they really belong?

[00:05:26] Lara: That's a really good question. There are two scenarios that I want to talk about: the first one is in general, and the second one is COVID. In general, this year has been really important for the entire company to push for more action-based discussions around diversity, equity, inclusivity, belonging. In the past, Bumble has done a really good job of putting us out there as a brand that has a point of view, but we are at the end of the day a product and not just a brand, so having things in the product that reflect that are really, really important.

[00:06:15] Lara: This year we broke into more squads or pods, depending on what kind of methodology you follow, and one of the things that we decided to prioritize as a company was safety. User safety became its own little unit, with resource, with budget and everything, so there was no excuse to ignore this very important question around online dating and also real life dating. That was one of the things that we did, and I think it had a really strong impact. One of the features that I mentioned in the talk that I gave was a safety feature, and we've done a lot more.

[00:06:56] Lara: The other thing is we reframed a lot of the questions that we asked around dating in general, from the core or target audience that we had in our heads, which didn't really have a face but ended up, because of quantity, because of a majority, looking very specifically like one type of person. We wanted to change that conversation, so not just design but everyone — research, product — started to look into our underserved audiences. Instead of researching around how people date in general, we also did separate research to understand how the LGBTQ community dated in our app, how Black women especially dated in our app, and all the challenges that they faced that other people didn't face.

[00:07:48] Lara: That was really eye-opening for everyone, but especially for designers. I think it was a good opportunity to think about the kind of risk that we run into by just doing our jobs. We don't really think about responsibility when we're designers, we think about creativity, but product designers have a really huge responsibility. That's something that I always say: leadership and design should be like politicians, they should be thinking about people versus a screen. I think that was a very positive thing that happened: it reframed the entire team to start thinking about those very hard questions. Since then we started to maybe naturally introduce way more of that conversation into everything we do, but also to really talk about specific things that we want to do for each of these things that we identified.

[00:08:44] Lara: Next year I think will be even more important, because COVID derailed some of these efforts, just because of how different dating is in general. But next year will be really big in us releasing some of the work and also evolving some of that thinking to even more things.

[00:09:06] Lara: If you want something that is live right now, the way our algorithm works is always evolving, and one very important thing is that we brought up this conversation so much that all the teams are taking that into consideration and improving that. Some other things: we started to tailor some of our main screens in terms of language, to make the language in the whole app more gender neutral. Dating has a really big problem of gendered conversations, and we wanted the app to be way more inclusive, so we did an overhaul of the pronouns and everything that we use. That's a really small change, but when you go into the app and you're a non-binary user and you see that it's not putting you in a box, it gives you a different perspective and you feel welcome. We also did expand the gender selector that we have and tailor that towards giving a positive experience for every person, not just people who fall into the binary.

[00:10:16] Lara: There are a lot of actions that we did throughout the year. And COVID went through the same. We ended up having to learn how people date, so we expanded a lot of our knowledge on virtual online dating, about people getting to see each other before they get to know each other, and how that affects how people really think about other people. Because of that we had to change all our roadmaps and rethink a lot of the future ideas that we had and all the projects that we had, to really focus around: okay, how can we get people, in this weird time, to really get to know each other in a meaningful way versus a superficial way? That ended up evolving into something that became a more expanded mission for the whole company. I'm really proud of the fact that everyone, the team, did the exercise — it wasn't just design, research, it was everyone — and it ended up paying off really nicely and is now central to Bumble. I hope I have answered the question.

Brand voice and listening to your own people

[00:11:23] Chhavi: Yes. You gave a lot of insights on the overall working of the product and how it had to cope with the changing times, and also the fact that you pointed out that products need to have a strong brand as well, especially in the year 2020 when we had so many occasions, be it Black Lives Matter or the US elections. For a product to have a strong brand presence and take a side, that had to come off very strongly, and that definitely had an impact on the engagement. Kax, coming to you, along the same lines: you're a product lead yourself. Do you want to add a line or two, or your thoughts, on products having a strong brand voice as well?

[00:12:13] Kax: Wow, that's a loaded topic. It's probably worth a talk in itself. I think for Adevinta[?], for example, there's a lot of work that we've done especially this year in being very vocal about certain things, about the way that we take care of our employees. But more than having a strong brand voice, I think one of the things that is important for a company to focus on is actually getting feedback as well, because there is no brand voice if you don't know what exactly your people are saying.

[00:12:50] Kax: That's one of the things that I've seen Adevinta do a lot of this year, especially with COVID coming in and a lot of people having concerns about working remotely: screens and tables, are they available, can we work from somewhere, and how does that impact the work, and how does this impact the team, our mental health, having a lot of meetings in our calendars, et cetera, et cetera. That has really been the center of all of our conversations in Adevinta. And as a bonus, if there is something really worth sharing, that came out as a brand voice and that's being shared in relevant channels — like this one, I can talk about it, because that feedback has happened, because that conversation has happened internally.

Compassion inside product teams

[00:13:45] Chhavi: Thank you Kax for the answer. I saw that Gianluca just joined. Hi Gianluca, nice to have you here. Joey, can you unmute him, please?

[00:13:58] Gianluca: Hello, hello everyone. I'm sorry for being a little bit late. Actually working on a startup, as many of us know, is a little bit hectic, so sorry about that. And thank you, thank you for the invitation, Chhavi.

[00:14:11] Chhavi: No worries, we'll give you a moment to catch your breath while we talk to Karolin. Karolin, in your talk you have talked about compassion in tech. Can you talk about a few products who have shown compassion and evolved with the needs of the current time?

[00:14:29] Karolin: Yeah, I can definitely talk about the product that I'm currently working on. Basically what we do in my company is we analyze client data and we try to find patterns in it, and one thing we introduced recently is that we allow tagging private data, to make sure we respect people's privacy, which is super important. But in general I think one product is the sum of all of its processes that lead to the completion of that product, and that's why I think it's also important how the team works together compassionately on a daily basis, and during the whole time of the creation.

[00:15:14] Karolin: That's why I think, to be honest, we did a really good job coming closer together as a team, checking in on each other even more, communicating in a more peaceful, non-judgmental way, to make sure people get stuff done although maybe they are suffering from anxieties, or maybe they have a lot of other things on their plate like childcare. I think that also really matters to create a good product: how people collaborate.

How recruitment has adapted

[00:15:55] Chhavi: Definitely. Thanks Karolin. And Gianluca, now coming closer to talking about compassion: in these times when we can't have face-to-face meetings, and definitely the on-site interviews that we had for the whole day, those are all not possible, and also people are going through different situations while they're interviewing for different positions. How have recruitment practices evolved with the current times to keep up with it?

[00:16:24] Gianluca: Really, really good question. I think many of the processes remain the same as what we had inside, but it has changed the way that we do them. As you say, many of the on-site interviews are not possible, so basically it's adapting to the situation, right, and being empathetic and understanding what's happening worldwide and everywhere that we are looking for talent.

[00:16:49] Gianluca: With this we have been, for example at Glovo, going remote until the COVID situation stops, giving flexibility to employees. Also we added, for example, unlimited vacations, to build our culture based on trust with the same objective. But at the end, the empathy that people must feel during these times is key, and that's what we're doing. Also a lot of communication and over-communication: very important that people feel support. Wellness programs, mental health programs also inside, and of course again remote onboarding. I think the process remains basically sometimes the same in terms of what we're looking for, but how we do it, and what we are looking at now, and how we understand every situation, has changed.

Where belonging fits in the design process

[00:17:48] Chhavi: Yeah, I think that really sums up how most of us are dealing with this situation. Thank you Gianluca for that answer. That ends section one from my side. I see we have a question for Lara. Meanwhile, if any of you have any other questions for empathy and compassion in your team, please put it in the chat box. Lara, a question for you. The question is: which part of the design process is the right part to focus on belonging? We as a design team from K15t Software are wondering how the work is distributed among eight or more designers in a design team.

[00:18:26] Lara: I think it definitely depends on the maturity of the team. The more influence you have, obviously the more intrinsic that is to the work that you do, and the more you're seen as a service, the more you have to push for things to happen. If you have a team of eight people or more, let's say, and you work in a very embedded, collaborative way with other stakeholders, what I suggest is to definitely bring it as early as possible. The earlier you can, the more mature that means your process is, so it's a good thermometer to see how well you're doing in terms of having a design-led culture. If, for example, you have the chance to participate in planning for a roadmap, that means that you are actively shaping the product. If your team or lead is part of that conversation, that's really good, and that's the right moment to bring up those questions.

[00:19:24] Lara: I definitely think at some point, as you are scoping the solution, that's where it definitely needs to exist. If you cannot bring it forward when you are planning a roadmap and say, guys, what can we do here, what kind of research can we do to identify problems in these areas, what can we do to identify misuse, then you should definitely do that within your domain when it's time to scope a solution.

[00:19:51] Lara: I'll give you two examples. When you're doing discovery, a good way is to have a separate meeting during the discovery process, during the planning process, where you talk about possible risk or misuse. That's a way to identify bias in the stuff that you're designing and to get other people in the same mindset. Instead of going to the design team and talking about this, do a cross-disciplinary workshop where the topic is: okay, what are the risks involved in this, financial, technical, social, economic, et cetera? You will uncover a lot of these questions and people get in the right mindset.

[00:20:35] Lara: If you don't have that maturity, and you don't have the cross-disciplinary influence, you should be doing that when you design with your team, so sit with the other designers and ask those questions. The important thing is, the earlier in the process the better. If you only think about those things when it's time to validate a solution or maybe test a solution, you probably will already have a bad impact, and it's really hard to undo things that have been released. Look at Facebook, for example: the snowball effect that happened on Facebook is now impossible to undo, because all the consequences are already there. So it's better to identify early.

Hiring when roles don't stay in their lane

[00:21:16] Chhavi: Thanks Lara. I hope that answers your question, and if you have follow-up questions, type them here or on the Slack channel. Okay, moving on to the next part. I'm going to focus more on careers and job opportunities, because I see some questions about that here. The first one is for you, Kax. You talked in your talk about how all of your team pitched in irrespective of their conventional job description, and at the end of the day if it was about helping the team they just went ahead and did it. How do you ensure, while you're hiring or while you're talking to prospective candidates, that those unconventional definitions of the role within your team are conveyed or communicated in a way so that the expectations are set right?

[00:22:10] Kax: I think there are different parts to this. For one is the posting, for example, the listing for the job itself. One of the things that I'm really proud of when it comes to Adevinta, and the way that we do it, is that our culture is very visible in our job offers and in the way that we communicate everywhere, in our posts, on our site. Our company culture of "say it as it is", "win together, lose together" — all of those values are very visible. When you come into the mindset of "I'm going to apply for this role in this company", there is already that expectation that you're part of an organization, and if the organization's value is "win together, lose together", there is some set of expectations around that.

[00:23:05] Kax: There is also the part of being very clear in the job descriptions about what is your team's, or the team that you're going to come into, what is that team's mission, and having a clear conversation around that and putting focus on it, more than for example requirements. At the end of the day requirements are more of a nice to have, but this is a personal opinion. The responsibilities and the mission of the team need to go together as well.

[00:23:37] Kax: And then there's also the interview process, and being transparent about how your team works, what is the kind of culture you have in your team. For example, in our organization we have a part of the interview process called the culture fit interview, which is pretty much a chance for the candidate to interview us as well and ask about how we do stuff, how we work, how we collaborate. We bring in people from the team into this conversation so we can talk about our processes, everybody's responsibility, everybody's mission, and how they're contributing to the end goal. There's probably more to it than that, it's probably not as simple as I'm imagining it in my head, but I think it's all about being transparent on the expectations, from a company point of view and also from a team point of view.

[00:24:36] Chhavi: Thanks Kax, thanks for the answer. I think there's a follow-up question which we can quickly cover since we are on this topic, which is: if everyone contributes things that are out of their expertise zone, how do you, or should you, set boundaries between the roles of the team members?

[00:24:52] Kax: This is something that we're still trying to define. We're all still testing new processes in our team. But again, at the end of the day we work towards a goal, and how to contribute to that goal can be fluid. It can be fluid if somebody needs to code, somebody needs to write, somebody needs to write copy, or design. That's all that matters: who can do it at that point. It is something that we're trying to keep as fluid as possible, who has that capability. I've been doing user interviews, for example, because our UXer is full. It doesn't really matter. It's not about gatekeeping that responsibility, it's about making sure that it gets done so that you achieve your goals.

[00:25:47] Kax: In our team as well, we're not so concerned about setting those boundaries, we're more concerned about achieving the goal that we have set for ourselves in that quarter. What I do acknowledge, though, is that this might be different per team, different per organization, wherein some people, some teams, might have more preference on really clear boundaries, and that could be the personality of the team. For us it's not. So it's really about defining what is important for your team, how to cater to the personalities around it as well, and what kind of culture you want to build as well. I hope that answers your question. It's also a lot to unpack.

Where did the junior roles go?

[00:26:42] Chhavi: Yes, thank you so much. If you have follow-up questions, feel free to tag Kax and ask them. The next one I'm going to ask both Gianluca and Lara, because I think both of them will have good insights on this one. This is from Agustin. The question is: the job offers for all roles have reduced last year, but junior positions seem to have disappeared completely. In your opinion, when are they coming back? Gianluca, would you like to go first?

[00:27:10] Gianluca: Okay, thank you for this opportunity to share some thoughts. Basically it all depends on the economies. Each company has a budget, and founders — and not just founders, but the board of directors — are looking for revenues. Sorry if you hear noise, they are making some changes here. Basically it depends on the economy. If the economy recovers faster, that means that companies will have better chances of allocating this money and therefore will be able to create more junior positions to help with work.

[00:27:48] Gianluca: Now, each economy behaves differently. For example, Spain is a services, a cash economy, that works differently than for example the USA or other economies. If you watch, of course, the videos that we made all together here, we talked about that: the founders and VCs, some of them believed that the economies are going to start recovering to normal basis in Q2, Q3 2022, so we still have some of these.

[00:28:24] Gianluca: To add to this, I will say there are still some junior positions, but right now you have five or ten times more competition, so the idea is to stand out and to be different, to not just do the normal application and so on. These are my two main ideas. Of course I would like to hear more from Lara.

[00:28:46] Lara: Thanks. I think one thing that is important to consider, at least in design, is that most companies right now either had to let people go or they froze hiring, and like Gianluca said, a lot of this has to do with the economy. If you think about any company that has a supply chain — which Bumble luckily doesn't, so we're in luck, we didn't have to let people go, but a lot of companies had to — anything that has a supply chain has been affected. Most companies do have a supply chain, and that means they rely on the real world, either for distribution or for the end user to use something. Airbnb needs houses, and things like that.

[00:29:32] Lara: Because of that, these companies will hire slowly. They had to let people go, and usually the people who go first are the least experienced, because they need more support. If you imagine, for every person that goes that is a manager, ten people are left without support. And if you think about a junior role, those people need a lot more support. Another thing that companies are doing is focusing a lot more on quick execution right now, because of COVID everything is changing every two months, so you need to execute fast, and for that you hire senior people because they need less support.

[00:30:13] Lara: All of that is going to take a long time to be fixed, and I do think the market is going to stay like that even if the economy recovers a bit, because design culture is something that when you pull it back a little and it gets a little worse, it's really hard to get back to where you were quick. If the company is relying less and has less support for juniors, the tendency is to stay that way until something changes and a catalyst happens. So even if the economy improves, the teams will probably stay in execution mode for a little longer.

[00:30:51] Lara: Another good thing is that because of the economy it will self-regulate a little bit, because the schools are getting a lot less people, so in a few years it will level down. It'll be a few years that would be weird, but then it will end up being a little worse, obviously, for everyone, because the economy was deeply affected. But you have less people graduating every six months, so in the market you will start to find more places and you improve a little bit. But yeah, it will be a very tough journey.

[00:31:24] Lara: My advice is to diversify what you're looking for. Don't go for the same companies, look for smaller companies that will take a chance on you. Move if you can, look in other countries. If you can't, for personal reasons or financial reasons, then try to find something local that is stable, because you can also join a company that has roles open but is not very stable and won't be stable for the next year, year and a half, and you might end up losing that job. So try to think about long-term stability as well.

[00:32:02] Kax: Can I add something to that? What I also noticed as a trend — and I super agree with what Lara mentioned about diversifying — look at other industries as well, that's not your norm, because they're probably looking for designers one way or another. Maybe it's not in tech, but for example health, which is booming, is probably needing designers one way or another. Also, some companies are switching to remote work, so companies who wouldn't normally be in your radar because they're in a different continent could probably be an option now. And the hustle culture is becoming stronger in these times, since people are becoming more entrepreneurial in terms of starting their own small businesses from their homes, and probably those people will need design help as well. So that could be little things that could be done to find those design opportunities.

Moving from design into engineering

[00:33:11] Chhavi: Thank you so much for answering that really tricky question with full frankness and honesty. Karolin, I want to get this to you, because you've transitioned from a designer to developer, and in these times we've seen a lot of people transition out of roles, out of necessity or after periods of thinking. What are some tips that you have for how, like Lara mentioned, to diversify your options, and also for making those transitions if and when needed?

[00:33:43] Karolin: Yeah, as you mentioned, my experience specifically transitioning from design to a developer role, that's why I can give good advice for this specific case. It definitely took me a year or two to get stable in a new role, and one thing that has been of big, big help for me was definitely mentorship. When I'm looking for new roles, I try to make sure that the companies will actually have the potential to be able to mentor me.

[00:34:23] Karolin: Also, before even getting my first job in engineering, I was writing emails to tons of companies that were interesting for me, to find out if maybe they would like to help me in the learning process. I was still working as a designer, but I went to offices of companies to work on my own exercises basically, and let them give me advice when I had questions, when I was stuck. Because especially when learning how to code, you get stuck all the time and it's very frustrating, and you need somebody that will tap your shoulder and say it's going to be fine, you'll figure it out at some point. It's really important, otherwise I think it can easily happen that you give up on the way.

[00:35:12] Karolin: And then one other thing I noticed is that in the beginning, when I was still a designer wanting to go to engineering, I bought a lot of books about software engineering and I got them shipped to my house and I started reading them and I was very excited and I thought, wow, very interesting how these people do it. And then I sat down in front of my code editor and I tried to code, but that's not how it works. You don't read a book and then you start coding. You have to play around a lot and experiment and play with code all the time. Reading books about it is amazing on the side, but the main thing is to get your hands dirty and to practice a lot and to do exercises.

[00:36:00] Karolin: That's one thing I wasn't so aware of in the beginning, or maybe I was also afraid to code because I didn't want to show how I'm failing. But it's very important to fail and suffer and struggle with it a lot. That's the advice I can give. And also, go a lot to meetups. There's a lot of amazing meetups for people to learn how to code, also in Barcelona, and a lot of them are also happening online now.

San Francisco wages, anywhere in the world

[00:36:34] Chhavi: Thank you Karolin for giving an insight into how it's not that easy, but if you keep going, you can. Just a time check: we have 10 more minutes. I'm going to ask the question that Rory has for our panel, but meanwhile if you have any questions just put them down here. Now's the time to get them answered, feel free to put it down and I'll pick it up. Rory's question is — and any of our panel members, please feel free to pick this up — speaking of jobs, Reddit and Gumroad announced that they will offer San Francisco wages to anyone, wherever in the world they are. Do you think people in traditionally lower wage countries will be able to take advantage of this?

[00:37:17] Lara: I can give you my honest answer: yes and no. I always find it funny when companies say, oh yeah, we're going to hire anywhere in the world, and then we're going to pay you, I don't know, two hundred thousand dollars a year. The reality is that those companies have very strict hiring processes, and at the end of the day they want it to come from Facebook or Dropbox. And where are those companies? Silicon Valley. So it's easy to say you're going to hire anywhere, but then you hire from the same places over and over again. Without a diversity, action-based diversity program to break those barriers, and to look at potential instead of looking at experience, and to take more than two seconds to look at a portfolio, which is what hiring managers usually spend, that won't change.

[00:38:10] Lara: So I would say yes, apply, and make sure that you're applying with confidence and with the right work. Read as much as you can about it online, don't do the things that they say not to do when you apply, give your all. But there's a big chance that you're going to have to start a little smaller, maybe not with San Francisco salaries but a San Francisco company that will put you on the map for those bigger companies, and then eventually you break the barrier.

[00:38:38] Chhavi: Cool, thank you, thank you Lara. Kax, Karolin, any thoughts to add to that?

[00:38:46] Gianluca: I think Lara mentioned it very clearly at the end: it's about the hiring bars that these companies have. Of course, if we talk about the economy and how other people can benefit from it, you can, but as Lara said, you have to be ready for what's there. And as she said also, I would recommend the same: point for a smaller San Francisco company and then move towards a big one, or prepare very well and do so. But this is something that we're already seeing. We're hiring also from the Valley and from Europe, and for example people from, I don't know, Romania. Really good engineers from Romania are already working in Silicon Valley but with wages of — I give that example because we have that example very soon. It's happening already, so yes, I believe people can be benefited with it.

[00:39:45] Kax: I do have a similar but kind of different perspective around this, as somebody who came from, who was shipped from the Philippines to Barcelona. There are different angles as well to look at. If ever it does happen, even if they do say we're going to pay you San Francisco salary, do your research, make sure they're really going to do that, because there is a huge gap between what you expect in your brain, because of what you're used to, and what's the reality of the companies that you're going into. You don't want to be that person who's not necessarily undervaluing yourself, but because of a lack of research on your part you're not aware that you could have asked for this instead of this. So that's one.

[00:40:35] Kax: And the second one is, be creative around your job search as well, or your application. Now that the competition is becoming very, very stiff, the usual process of submitting your CV via LinkedIn, by email, going through different job sites, et cetera — there's a lot of people there, you're fighting against volume. So work as well on your own brand, work on your personal brand, and make yourself desirable as an employee, make yourself, or as a professional, make known your strengths, make known your skills, your achievements, so that you can also attract these companies the other way around. Instead of you going to them, they could be going to you as well. But that takes longer work and a lot more dedication than writing CVs and sending them to individual companies.

Overseas hiring in Europe

[00:41:30] Chhavi: Yeah. And now, since we're talking about being shipped around, I think this is one thing that personally I, and some of the people I know on the call, would be really interested in: how is the sentiment around overseas hiring? I could start with Gianluca, because he's towards the right on my screen. The idea is, how is the sentiment in Europe, especially Spain, about overseas hiring? And then we can have all these speakers answer it.

[00:42:02] Gianluca: Again, this is a very good question. Overseas hiring is more open for high-qualified roles. We are talking about the roles that earn in Spain 50k or more, that have four or five years of experience. These give more facilities for the overseas hiring. For other roles, that maybe we are not, or we were not, in that phase, it's a little bit harder, but for companies and the government there are certain requirements, and these are the requirements, so this is the first line about that.

[00:42:37] Gianluca: It depends, right? There are companies that are fully remote, so you also need to check the taxes of each of the countries, where is your local entity, how you are managing, and those things, similar to what Kax said before. And it's happening: Glovo, for example, has around 40 percent of the engineering team that has come from abroad. So it's happening, many companies are doing so, but again it depends on each country and the regulations that the country has within your country and so on.

[00:43:14] Chhavi: Karolin, would you like to add, being an expat yourself, how do you see the sentiment around that?

[00:43:20] Karolin: I don't really know how many overseas hires there were in my company. What I know is that also through the year we turned more into a remote company, like a lot of companies, especially tech companies, and we are more open to remote hires. That's what I know.

[00:43:46] Kax: Adevinta[?] is pretty, or it has always been pretty good when it comes to hiring outside of Europe. Case in point, me[?]. But we've also hired from different continents, from Africa, from South America. Similar to what Gianluca said, it's a higher tier in terms of experience and expectations, because of country regulations. For example, in our offices in the Nordics it's the same: it depends on the regulations that are available in Sweden and Norway. So I would say yes, it's possible. There's a bit of a barrier to get there, but that's really not the company's fault, it's more of what is available to them because of laws.

[00:44:46] Kax: But work towards it. Some friends that I know of went through another route of doing masters first, and once they're in that country then they started applying for the role, because they're already there. The others went from one country to another: they went to a country that has more generous regulations, and then from there, because probably that country has a better relationship with their real target country, that's another path. But it's also about positioning yourself well. Are you really, really in that position where the company super wants you and will fight for you? That is also a good path to be in.

Relocation, contracting and sponsorship

[00:45:34] Chhavi: Thanks Kax. Lara, do you want to add?

[00:45:37] Lara: I just want to add, I agree with everything that was said. There are two main ways, because of COVID, that you can do it. You can, yes, go move to that country, relocate, which is one thing, or you can find companies that can hire remote anywhere. A lot of these companies, especially smaller companies, get away with hiring people from anywhere via contracting. Each country has its own laws about contracting, so I would get to know yours if you plan on doing that, but they're usually way more relaxed, because you're kind of a company that your company is hiring, so it's usually way easier. But you won't enjoy the benefits, obviously, of your job.

[00:46:19] Lara: If you want to relocate, then you definitely need to know if that company can sponsor you. I would advise against just applying to all the companies, I would research. In most countries the company has to be over a certain threshold in terms of revenue, number of people, et cetera, to be an entity that can sponsor. I know that's true for Bumble in the UK, for example. We just opened an office in Barcelona, but because it's super new we still can only hire people who have the right to work in Barcelona, unfortunately. But if you want to relocate to London, then they can relocate you to London. There are these intricacies, and I would definitely research the companies you want to work for and understand how they can help you, if they can help you at all. And I would talk to people who've done the same from your country. If you know anyone, they're the best people to give you advice.

[00:47:15] Chhavi: Amazing, thank you, thank you so much. We are right on time. Thank you so much to all the people who came. I know virtual events are the downsides of 2020: we miss being in the same room and just walking up to the people and talking to them. So thank you so much for making the time.